Inspired By Love
Key Takeaways
Amanda's encounter with Jesus transformed her identity from self-focus to other-focus, leading to a life of serving others.
The creative journey involves reframing self-criticism and prioritizing serving others over seeking external validation.
Diversity and inclusion play a crucial role in shaping worldview and challenging the status quo. The sacredness and significance of gathering around the table in the gospel story and the body of Christ.
The importance of returning to liturgies, sacraments, and the wisdom of the ages in contemporary culture.
The need for collaboration, mentorship, and the creation of space for women's voices at the table in the church and society.
Episode Transcript
Caleb Gray (00:01.302)
Well, welcome to the upside down people podcast, Amanda. I am so glad to be having a conversation with you here today. How are you going?
aviviers (00:09.634)
going really well. Thank you so much for your time.
Caleb Gray (00:12.567)
well, I should be thanking you. Thank you so much for your time and having this conversation. I'm really looking forward to getting into it. I know you live in the creative space and you have authored a number of books as well. And yeah, you're quite involved in the marketplace as well. So maybe a good place to start for our listeners who may not know you is just sharing a bit about your life story and then...
how you came to faith.
(00:45.89)
Absolutely. Well, I live in a little town south of Perth and for the listeners that are from Western Australia, it is Rockingham. I live in Shoalwater and my husband and I are renovating a boat right now. So although his name is Shal, I call him Noah and we have learnt so many lessons from renovating a 10 metre boat and it has been a challenge for sure.
Caleb Gray (01:01.173)
Nice.
Caleb Gray (01:11.734)
Wow.
avivier (01:15.796)
But I grew up in Rockingham. I grew up in a local Catholic community. My family was incredibly involved in the local church. And although sometimes when we talk about the Catholic denomination, there can be moments where we think that a lot of it is around rituals and rules. I found that it was a part of my local community and we were very involved in our school community and our
local community. My dad was a local counsellor.
and my uncle was the mayor for many seasons. And so I got to see what it was like to be a part of a local community and to see the needs of what is happening. And so that is the way I grew up. I grew up very creatively. My mum is an actor. And so we were involved in local theatre productions from a very small age. And I just found that the sea and the stage were my places of play.
and I grew up.
Caleb Gray (02:21.301)
Awesome.
aviviers (02:21.506)
just running along the beach and standing on the stage singing musical songs which I don't know I feel like they're coming back slowly musicals I think there's a few more musicals at the cinema and we're starting to see a lot more on the stage but yeah that that was the beginning and so I I loved I loved growing up here but there was also a part of me that felt like there was an explorer in my heart that wanted to go out and to do new things.
Caleb Gray (02:39.989)
Brilliant.
aviviers (02:51.46)
And yeah, university opened up some of those doors and that was where I was met with a lot of different thought and different worldviews than what I had grown up with. And I got into what is called the West Australian Academy of Performing Arts and I did a musical theatre degree and I also did an English and comparative literature and history BA. And that's it.
Caleb Gray (03:20.757)
Wow.
aviviers (03:21.38)
just really opened up a lot of thoughts and I didn't think there was much more outside of the Catholic Church and my small town and my big family but I realized there was a lot more outside of that so yeah that's a little bit of my story and and what that looks like and yeah it was beautiful.
Caleb Gray (03:42.293)
That's awesome. Yeah. So going to, I'm curious, going to like the Western Australian performing arts and then also doing a creative degree as well. How did you find, did you find your, your faith was challenged in that at all? Or was it sort of a curious space where you could engage in questions of, of faith and
life around us and how it all came to be.
aviviers (04:14.594)
categorically my faith was challenged and I think my sense of identity hadn't been fully formed.
so that I was able to really rumble with differences of opinions in a postmodern context and be able to do that with a strength of clarity. So absolutely, the yearly annual ball, I remember getting ready for the ball and it was contextually just like nothing I'd ever seen before. Even the name was very secular and people
dressed up in ways that I had never really experienced before. So even though I didn't live in country Western Australia, I felt like it was like this country girl had hit the university and I just didn't know what to do with it. It was very challenging.
Caleb Gray (05:11.317)
Right, yeah, I can imagine and what sort of like, yeah, what was that faith journey like for you to where you find yourself today?
aviviers (05:21.41)
Absolutely. So in that season I found myself wanting to just grow up and be away from the family. I even was like I would never return to Rockingham. I am gonna go to the stage of the world and it was like packed up my backpacks and I'm ready to shift to the city and see you later little small town. And it was so funny but in the midst of that I started to encounter Jesus and people.
and also in congregations that were so uncommon. And I believe that the Holy Spirit had a journey for me that included creativity and productions and the stage and environments that was so much bigger than what the musical theatre industry could ever promise and was filled with so much more meaning and opportunity. So I was invited to a youth camp and I was just kind of like, you know.
I'm not really sure I want to go to this and so before I went on the youth camp I went and checked out the youth meeting and Categorically, I said to my friend. Okay, I'm going to a cult tonight and so Just in case can you call me in the middle of the meeting? Because I'm actually going there to make sure that they come back to the true church They come back to the to the place where it was right and I was just I honestly
Caleb Gray (06:39.125)
Brilliant.
aviviers (06:49.668)
just had such blinders on my eyes. It was like I was going there thinking that I was rescuing them away from their era, their theological era. But truly that night I encountered Jesus. I encountered Jesus in a way that completely changed my life. So I actually owned a business. I had a dance and drama school which had a lot of students that were a part of it. So I was studying, then it moved on to a different degree as well.
Caleb Gray (06:52.629)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (07:05.365)
Wow.
aviviers (07:19.588)
And I was a part of two different university campuses and I was running a business and I was in professional musical theatre on stage at His Majesty's and the Regal Theatre and the Playhouse Theatre. And then in the midst of this, I saw this expression of creativity and I saw this youth movement.
Caleb Gray (07:33.365)
Wow.
aviviers (07:43.202)
that set my soul on fire. And so I really encountered Jesus that night at the youth meeting and within days I gave up my business, I transferred or pressed pause on my university degree and went to Bible college and ended up worship leading at that youth camp rather than just being like someone who was off to the side. And so...
Caleb Gray (08:08.149)
Wow.
aviviers (08:12.77)
It's just hilarious now when I think about it. It was a long time ago but I was a part of the Riverview Church experience for, you know, I was a part of that congregation for 19 years. That was the youth group that I went to. I was on staff at Riverview within a few months and ended up being on their executive team overseeing creativity as a creative minister. And yeah, it was my role for a long time to lead events like church together.
in all of our conferences and our big productions and yeah so it was amazing for me to see that God took what was in the natural and sometimes my identity was just so whacked in the middle of that but sometimes that's just what it looks like to grow up I think.
Caleb Gray (08:48.789)
That's amazing.
aviviers (09:05.506)
and that he reformed, he didn't change the essence of who I was, he just allowed me to make meaning and to find pathways of hope that were incredibly humble to serve someone else's vision rather than my own and I think that was the greatest transformation.
Caleb Gray (09:31.029)
Well, yeah, so you mentioned identity then. I'm really curious to understand what was the shift, would you say, in that identity that you're saying when you encountered Jesus and your life, it didn't do, like you're saying, he didn't change your desire. You're still a creative person in a creative space, but...
there's big shifts in what you're studying, the business you're running, a number of shifts that happened. Tell us about what your identity perhaps was and how God transformed that.
aviviers (10:15.329)
Really simply, it went from me to other.
And so there was this sense where my identity was so formed around how I looked, how I sung, how I performed, you know, like I definitely struggled with an eating disorder in that time because there was such a sense of focus in the creative arts around how you looked and what that was. And then suddenly this deep transformation and this amazing encounter with the Holy Spirit that was
transforming me to be about another and to be about the other and to really be able to see diversity and inclusion and the sense of who Jesus was that created space for others rather than me creating attention just based on myself. And yeah, I hope that makes sense. But that's like that's the crux of it. You know, it was like I spent so much more of my life trying to make
Caleb Gray (11:12.597)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (11:16.597)
Yeah.
aviviers (11:19.588)
myself better and in that moment of transformation it became about me learning to love who Jesus had already made me to be and then to take that transformational experience and then to serve someone else with it.
Caleb Gray (11:38.389)
Beautiful. And would you say that that's been like an ongoing journey?
aviviers (11:45.538)
Yeah, absolutely. I think as becoming a parent, let's be honest. Let's be honest, right from the very start, it's like.
Caleb Gray (11:49.787)
That's definitely a, yeah, a transformational journey that one. Yeah.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (12:00.354)
Okay, I need to be other focused right now. Because you're creating context for creative children to thrive and their ideas and their identity and their needs of you as a parent are just so constant. And this opportunity for us to just really explore what it means to...
Caleb Gray (12:03.771)
It's Yeah.
aviviers (12:23.682)
just really sit and listen actively to our family and to those in our closest sphere for transformation. And so I think parenthood has absolutely taken me on the journey of that. I think my career as a writer and it's changed and moved over many seasons. And in some ways I would like to go back and take some of those books off the shelf because I've grown and I've changed.
And the more that we follow Jesus, the more that we realize we don't know, you know? I feel like Amanda circa 2019 before the pandemic is a very different Amanda to circa 2024 and beyond. Because I think...
Caleb Gray (13:11.036)
Right. What's the change or?
aviviers@compassion.com.au (13:15.906)
I think the pandemic showed us all that there's so much outside of our control and that when our world is in a state of constant threat that...
The opportunity that we have is to serve our local neighborhoods and to be really present in our local communities. And I found myself in the midst of the pandemic becoming, yes, aware of what was happening globally, but really broken for what was happening in my neighborhood. And the shift between that lens, both as important as one another.
actually meant that although I felt concerned about my family and my children and my dad who had just gotten a really severe diagnosis and my dad actually passed away in the pandemic there was this real deep desire to make sure that the old lady across the street was okay her name's Val and
the guys next door to me had food when they don't have a car and they can't get to the local shops. And yeah, I think it really once again was another layer of surrendering to being a good Samaritan in our local context, as well as really being connected to what's happening globally.
Caleb Gray (14:46.398)
Right. And yeah, that's a curious like shift as well. Obviously, I know many people who are creative desire that like, not the not the limelight, but it's something like they want the world to appreciate what they've created, which is a natural thing is like you make something like if you look at the Genesis story, God made a beautiful world and unwanted.
humans to inhabit it and appreciate it and it's a good thing. But then there's this like pool as well where we're called to, like you're saying, serve others and it's putting others' interests above our own. And children definitely teach you that I've got a daughter and it's amazing how you get married and it's like, well, I am a very selfish person.
when you have kids and it's like wow. It's like just an onion just yeah exactly and I've just got one daughter so when another one comes I'm sure there's going to be more layers that that just yeah god god.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (15:46.314)
I'm even more selfish than I thought I was.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (16:01.602)
And the layer is, I'm creating a selfish person.
Caleb Gray (16:05.693)
Brilliant. Yeah, so how do you navigate that and like the tension of being a creator, but then also like diligently and faithfully wanting to serve others?
aviviers@compassion.com.au (16:22.722)
Yeah, I think about this so often, so thank you so much for the question. At the moment I am studying Genesis and I really was brought to Genesis through Eugene Peterson's...
paraphrase of a Psalm that spoke about a Genesis week and what does it look like for God to bring order to our everyday in the midst of chaos. And I'm not sure about you, but my life right now feels pretty chaotic and it continues to change. And I think the world is seeing that played out in the every screen that we have access to. There is an increasing sense of...
threat and confusion and I think that that then comes back to the basis of your question and the first reflection that I have from Genesis is this I believe that God said that it was good before anyone interacted or appreciated
or was a part of the environments or the creative things that he expressed through word. And it's quite interesting because from the beginning it was then he created night and the land and he stopped and he said, what? It is good. And I think one of the greatest challenges that most creative people have is the inbuilt inner critic that continually criticizes what we do.
often because of the people that we think are interacting with what we're creating. And I think one of the greatest service that we can do as a Christian is actually to reorientate the way that God speaks to us in comparison to the way that we speak to ourselves about the things that we produce. And that would be the first thing that I would love your listeners to reflect upon.
Caleb Gray (18:24.575)
Yeah.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (18:27.938)
Because if you start to listen to your inner dialogue and you start to listen to the way that you speak to yourself about your creativity, about your expressions, about your worship, about the way that you serve, I would hazard to guess because I have worked with many creatives.
that the way that you speak to yourself is very different to the way that God would speak to you first and foremost. And I think a really interesting lens and often it can be seen as quite self -indulgent but it's not in any way is to answer this question how can I reframe the way that I speak to myself about the things that I am expressing through the lens of compassion.
How would God compassionately sit with me in the midst of this expression and to help me understand the way that he created me and the things that he has for me in the future? That would be the first thought. My second thought would be this.
So often we create for the critics rather than the people that God has asked us to speak to. So I am the kind of creative coach who believes you can write a book that maybe only one person will read and it was still worth writing the book.
Caleb Gray (19:57.896)
Wow, that's amazing.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (20:00.802)
It is worth every moment of writing it because first and foremost, let me tell you, I'm 15 books in, every book changes you, right? So it changes the future you, it changes you. So whether no one reads it or not, that's not the point of creativity. And it's not the point of worship either. Like I could sit on the beach in Shoalwater looking out at Penguin Island this afternoon.
Caleb Gray (20:07.44)
Right.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (20:30.274)
and never sign back into my workplace. I hope my workplace is not listening. And God would love me just as much if I was sitting on the beach in Rockingham.
Caleb Gray (20:41.921)
Wow.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (20:44.353)
As if I was logging in and having life -changing, very complex, expansive, postmodern conversations where I'm starting to grapple with the philosophy of the universe, right? God loves me just as much for doing nothing as he does for producing. But does that mean that I live a life of meaning and satisfaction by doing nothing?
No. So the size of the audience, the numbers that our social media obsessed, voracious appetite of our culture has, that does not equal success. Success is, do I know God? Does he know me? And am I doing what he's asking me to do?
Because if you're doing what he's asking you to do to take the next right step, the next right step, the next right step, the next right step, there will be people that are waiting for our story. And I passionately believe that no matter who you are, there is somebody who needs your story. And actually, we need to understand the power of our own testimony because that changes us first and foremost.
Caleb Gray (22:05.098)
That's amazing. I love, I mean, there's so many things that I love. I think you've inspired a number of people, including myself, to look at writing a book after this conversation. But it reminds me of, I can't remember where the quote's from, but it's like a 17th century priest, a peasant comes into his church.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (22:17.41)
Yes.
Caleb Gray (22:32.515)
often and you ask him and just sits there for hours and hours and hours and just ask him like, what's, what are you doing? And he, and he says like, I'm, I'm looking at God, looking at me in love. And it's, it sounds a bit like what you're saying is like, there's, there's this place where we need to come back to away from performance, away from the self -critic, away from external critics. And he, and even just,
the, I suppose, how the digital world just sort of consumes your thoughts and asks you to put yourself on a platform to be validated by people who don't care and don't love you, towards a place where God's just saying, if you just fix your eyes on me and set your eyes on me, you'll see a gentle, loving kind embrace and welcome that is just...
Yeah, such affection towards us and just sitting in that place is enough. So I love what you're saying Amanda and I'm curious to know, because that is a very counter -cultural thing to be able to just be yourself with God. What has that journey been like for you to
aviviers@compassion.com.au (23:38.882)
Absolutely.
Caleb Gray (24:00.036)
get to that place.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (24:03.522)
Well, I'm not sure that I've arrived there. It's actually about, yeah, I think it's posturing ourselves towards being a person who is becoming rather than a person who's arrived. And our world constantly speaks about arrival rather than the state of becoming. And becoming the person that we have.
Caleb Gray (24:08.644)
Awesome.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (24:30.562)
being designed and called and purpose to be is a lifelong endeavor. And I pray that I'm learning as much when I am in my seventies and eighties and nineties than I am now in my forties. But also I think it comes back to these few things. In my young adult years, I found a group of friends who were incredibly diverse.
And so I did not hang out all the time with the same people who thought the same as me, first thought. Second thought is I've always challenged ageism. I have something to learn from people who are younger than me and I have a lot to learn from people who are older than me. I have even more to learn from people who have grown up in different cultural contexts than me.
And when we find ways to create diversity and inclusive thought processes in the way that we understand the world and our worldview, it actually changes us from being a person who is constantly about what we're doing, but is immersed in a group and a group think that challenges,
Caleb Gray (25:27.621)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (25:56.002)
that challenges the status quo.
Caleb Gray (25:58.597)
Mm, brilliant.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (26:00.29)
And so I think sit at tables with people who think very differently to you and find ways to actively listen and to grow. And that has been something that I've always given energy and effort to, especially with the local church, you know, the local church is the hope of the world.
And every context that I just described is in the local church. And I think in some ways in all the knowledge, in all the amazing discussions that we've been having, we almost throw the baby out with the bath water and go, there's so much more like, what's the word like?
We just know so much God, we know so much. You know, like the internet can tell me this, Caleb's podcast can tell me that. And yeah, it can, but it can't get you around a table with an 80 year old that's seen all this before. It can't get you to sit and eat food from a country that you've never experienced before.
Caleb Gray (26:46.182)
Right.
Caleb Gray (26:58.758)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (27:02.278)
ruins.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (27:08.93)
I just believe that we were designed to really live out, taste and see that the Lord is good. We're designed to experience life in its fullness and I think that's what's missing in the current.
dialogue around the emergent church and what that can look like. And I think the opportunity to come back to rituals and to come back to liturgy and to come back to community and to come back to the table and to come back to communion is so powerful. Anyway, can you tell that you've hit a spot? Because I'm like, I should stop talking.
Caleb Gray (27:43.912)
Yeah, keep going. Yeah, for sure. I love that imagery of the table. It's something I've been doing a lot of thinking around as well, just in the sense of look at how much of the gospel story revolves around meals and tables, and also what Jesus is coming back for at a wedding feast as well. So it's like the table is this sacred place, but it's a common place that
we need to gather around and it's a beautiful place because like you're saying, you can experience different tastes from different cultures. You get the diversity of people around a single table and it's just that reflection as well of the body of Christ where no one person owns the gospel and it's...
how we see Jesus is through a multitude of people reflecting and loving on each other and reflecting his beauty. So I love what you're saying about that. Maybe you could unpack a bit more about what you mean about returning to you mentioned liturgies and those sort of sacraments of the past because like we're sort of in a post -secular culture and a lot of
our listeners would have gone through a place of deconstruction. So a lot of things is about deconstructing your identity, pulling apart what's old and unnecessary and really trying to find something new, something more fulfilling. So I love what you're sharing and I'm curious to know more about your thoughts on it.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (29:35.97)
I think sometimes we forget that worship is about us encountering God and reflecting on God. But we in our creative expansion and our creative ideologies and our creative expressions can focus so much on the worship being about the idea that we've created and that we are participating in.
And so I've found in my own experiences that for example, meditation, biblical meditation is an incredibly powerful tool for my mind that worries and for my nervous system that is overstimulated by so much information.
And I do think there is an opportunity for us to really reflect on what contemporary culture and what the experience of the local church and the global church has meant for our own stories. And I'm not dismissing personal experience that's been difficult and I understand that. But at the same time, I actually think we just make it so much more complex than what God would ask us.
to be. And I think my internet is a little unstable. Are you still hearing me okay?
Caleb Gray (31:08.812)
All right. I can hear you. You just cut out for one or two seconds, but I can hear you now perfectly.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (31:19.01)
Okay, absolutely, I'll keep going. So for me when it comes to ritual and when it comes to liturgy, I think there's an opportunity for expression and for contemporary reflection on what no longer serves the body of Christ. But I also think there is a wisdom of the ages of what
we have learned across 2000 years rather than 200 years and to read scholars and to read information and to find ways to be able to explore the meta -narrative across a longer period of time rather than a shorter period of time and I think in my study I've been studying my Masters of Divinity and I'm nearly finished and what I am learning...
Caleb Gray (32:12.427)
Wow.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (32:13.89)
is to actually just make it simpler, make it about Jesus and to come back to words and routines that really bring us back to reflection, contemplation, reconciliation and expression of our praise and thanksgiving to God.
Caleb Gray (32:39.723)
So good. Yeah, I love that.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (32:40.226)
And let's just try keep it simple. We don't have to always make it super complex.
Caleb Gray (32:46.894)
Yeah, why do we try and make it complex? Because that's such a great pick up. We do try and make things more complex than they inherently are.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (32:59.938)
I think it comes back to that reflection that I had when I was at the youth group as we make it about ourselves rather than others. And when we're others focused, the simplicity, you know, of us being able to just talk to people about Jesus.
and don't say what we think they need to hear actually just lends it through our own transformational testimony. Like I feel so passionate about testimony. I think if we're going to get fired up about something we actually need to start getting fired up about testimony. Like when was the last time a church service was just people's testimonies?
because the Bible speaks just as much about testimony as it does about worship or food. In fact, the Bible, the New Testament speaks way more about hospitality. Like Jesus spent way more time on the beach cooking fish in shoal water. Then he did singing worship songs. And we make so much of the church about...
Caleb Gray (33:40.813)
Yeah, great, great question.
Caleb Gray (33:56.269)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (34:04.398)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (34:08.258)
the big expressions or the things that self -serve our own sense of righteousness. When actually there is a person sitting in the congregation who has the most radical testimony of what Jesus has done and the church will never hear their story.
Caleb Gray (34:15.245)
Yeah, that's.
Caleb Gray (34:30.189)
Yeah, yeah, that's a sobering thought that you'd hope, I mean the ideal in me would be like, I'd hope all churches are a place of community where people gather weekly around tables and share testimonies together and are able to really journey the highs and lows of life and see and encourage one another.
that God's with them no matter if they're in a valley low or mountain top. But yeah, I hear what you're saying. So much of the modern church is catered towards self -serving interests where it's a very easy thing. I was thinking about this the other day, like looking at Acts 2 .42 where it talks about how people met daily in each other's homes and broke bread together and
listen to the apostles, read the apostles teaching and I was thinking like so much of our service is either worship and the preaching of the Word, which are both necessary things and the Bible talks about them. But then I was like those are both things where people don't have to engage if they don't want to. It's very individual. So you can be worshipping and it's...
you don't have to engage with others around you. And then same with the preaching of the Word, is you can be sitting there listening to the Word and again it's very individual, you don't have to engage if you don't want to, but the things like the table, when you're gathering around a table it's hard not to engage and it's hard not to share testimony together. So I hope there is that return and that implementation in
in a lot more churches of yeah just the beauty that comes from that space and actually creating spaces for that to happen, for testimonies to be shared and people's lives to be encouraged where they can see God working in them. Yeah I mean so many great thoughts Amanda, I mean we could have so many different conversations here. One thing I did...
aviviers@compassion.com.au (36:55.394)
I feel like I've kind of taken us off track. I'm so sorry.
Caleb Gray (36:59.311)
No, you haven't at all. I love exactly the path this has gone down, honestly. Another thought that I had was from something that's been really pivotal and helped me and guided me over the years is a quote by St. Augustine of HIPAA and he says, the heart's restless until it finds its rest in you. And it is...
aviviers@compassion.com.au (37:25.122)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (37:27.279)
When you're talking about simplicity and returning to what matters, that's sort of what it reminded me of. It's like, that's what, like, my heart in all these other things, I can look for fulfillment and it's restless. It's this constant state of angst until I just sit with Jesus. Almost like what you were saying before. I mean, that's my happy places in the ocean, at the beach.
I'm there almost every morning as well with my daughter and it's this place of it reminds me to slow down. It reminds me that God's in the chaos and he brings peace to the storm. So I love that. I mean, I'm going on a bit of a tangent right now as well. But another...
aviviers@compassion.com.au (38:10.178)
Yes.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (38:16.77)
It's good, it's good.
Caleb Gray (38:21.775)
Like just shifting the conversation slightly, something I did want to hear your thoughts on is, and it's got to do with narratives, I suppose. What have been some like unhelpful or harmful narratives around women, the church, the marketplace? Because that's something I think isn't, hopefully it's being spoken about more, but there's...
Yeah, I'm just really curious to hear what your thoughts are there.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (38:53.986)
Yeah, absolutely. Let's just end with the big one, hey?
Caleb Gray (38:57.967)
Yeah, why not? This wasn't the plan at all, but I was, I was just like, man, I really like, it is something I wanted to pick your brain on. And I think it is something important. And yeah, great, great place to end, why not?
aviviers@compassion.com.au (39:11.042)
Yeah, I love it.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (39:17.826)
So let me give you a personal testimony. I was six years old. I remember where I was to the centimeter. I was kneeling down in a Catholic church. I closed my eyes and I saw a picture of my future. And the picture that I saw of my future was a grown up woman who was leading, speaking.
helping, transforming and was a part of a large global conversation but also a local expression. Remembering that I grew up in the Catholic Church and I saw nothing like that in that moment as the six -year -old.
And here I am 40 years later and I'm living out the picture that I saw as a six year old but there was no context for that. And the truth is my personal experience of leadership has never been about what man has allowed. I mean man as in people has allowed me.
to sit at a table or not sit at a table. Literally God has just opened up doors and opportunities where he's asked me to speak, where he's asked me to lead, where he's asked me to join the conversation, where he's asked me to mentor, to coach, to help, to bring transformation. And I've just said, yes, it's as simple as that, you know, like.
Yes we can dig deep down into church history. Yes we can look at the biblical context of what scriptures say this and what scriptures say something different. Yes we can do all of that. But essentially I am a woman who is studying theology, who is called to lead.
Caleb Gray (41:19.504)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (41:31.234)
who has been given the gift of leadership and prophecy and I use those gifts to serve whatever context God asks me to serve next. And I think sometimes we just make it way more externalized than that.
If a little girl is kneeling in a church and she sees a vision that she believes is from God, that she is being drawn towards leading and helping and finding ways to express and help people to encounter Jesus, like...
Who are we to say that she's wrong? Like, I can't, like, I know it sounds super simplified, but for me, I then came out of that vision or experience, and all I could think of is I'm becoming a nun.
Caleb Gray (42:15.632)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (42:28.578)
because that was the only experience in the Catholic Church that I knew. And so I grew up thinking, yes, I'm creative. Yes, I can sing professionally. Yes, I get all this opportunity to speak and to express. I used to write poetry constantly, like there was all these gifts bubbling as a child. But if you...
Caleb Gray (42:30.768)
Alright.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (42:54.37)
asked me what the one thing was, like the one thing. I was like I'm called to lead people like every time there was an opportunity to lead I'm like putting my hand up I'm like yes let me do it let me be the vice captain let me be the one who sings in front of all these high school students like and it wasn't like this
Caleb Gray (43:01.746)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (43:13.618)
Brilliant.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (43:15.458)
It wasn't like this desire to be noticed. I literally was just walking out the calling that I felt drawn by God towards. And so to then layer the filter of the rules and the religion and the you can do this but you can't do that, you can do this but you can't do that.
I think I just kept coming back to the six -year -old kneeling in the church who closed her eyes and saw a picture of what she believed God had for a future. It's not something I dreamed up myself. It was this experience that I can't let go of and I'm just living my life towards what that is.
Caleb Gray (43:49.458)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (43:58.466)
Does that mean there'll be tables where I need to really understand the context of the table that I'm sitting at and I need to sit with humility and listen and learn and change? Absolutely. Does that mean sometimes there's a door that's closed that I have to knock on and say, hey, can I come in? And maybe the answer might be no. Yes, that's the possibility.
But I actually think that your table is weighted differently when women sit at it.
And for me, I work with Compassion Australia and Asia, and I've just come back from Bangladesh, actually. And I wish I had have spoken more about the people that I encountered in Bangladesh. But the first thing that I experienced is the silencing and the oppression of women's voice in the country.
Caleb Gray (44:36.914)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (44:58.434)
and we are at loss when women are not sitting at the table. And so I sat in circles and places where mums and babies were expressing their wisdom for their local village and their wisdom for their local communities.
And it was the women who had the profound answers of application of what was needed for their country to be able to see the changes and the opportunities for the future. When I stood in a youth group and I saw young Bangladeshi women speaking strategically about the future of their nation, Bangladesh needs their voice. And one young girl, I asked her, I said, what's your dream when you grow up? And she said, I want to change.
Caleb Gray (45:39.058)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (45:44.484)
the nation of Bangladesh and the essence of that statement doesn't come from a dream or a wish that that's a sense of purpose that's deeply planted in someone for what God is calling them towards. So do we have a lot of work to be able to explore what that looks like? Yes. Does it mean some context it will look different? Yes. But if you are a woman...
If you know a woman, ask her what she dreams of and create places at the table so that she can express the things that God has planted deeply inside of her heart. It's as simple as that.
Caleb Gray (46:27.506)
Beautiful. I love that. And looking at it, like on a, I suppose a granular level, is it, would you say it primarily starts with like conversations, like what you're saying, asking what the dream is on, on someone's heart or, or that sense of deep rooted purpose? Cause I'm thinking more from a local church perspective is like, how, how do you think the local church can engage?
in this conversation in creating space for the woman's voice.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (47:05.25)
I think the first thing is to look at every level of leadership and to look at the percentage of gender bias that sits there. So it begins with the board, it then goes to a staff level, look at our connect groups, look at our key ministry staff and just start to look what the gender bias is and you'll get a quick sense of where your church is at.
Caleb Gray (47:33.17)
Yeah. And what's an encouragement for churches to begin engaging with, like with this, to create space at the table, to use your words?
aviviers@compassion.com.au (47:46.754)
I just read some research from the Australian Christian churches all around Australia and there is permission for women to lead in that context and the research paper is incredibly interesting because although there is permission, the percentage of gender bias is still incredibly low on the female quadrant.
So I believe the encouragement is this, how do we mentor our young women in a way that creates confidence and clarity and leadership capacity in a myriad of ways. So that doesn't mean it goes straight to being on a governance board. It is who is a young woman who is...
a green chute in leadership who has this capacity and how can you sit alongside them and mentor them towards increasing their confidence in voice.
Caleb Gray (48:53.17)
Brilliant. I love that. And yeah, I think it's it's really important as well for that to be spoken of as well with with young men as well to be able to understand that that equality. I'm just reflecting on I'm a full time stay at home dad at the moment. Some of our wives busy working and just we had a number of conversations of
aviviers@compassion.com.au (49:16.29)
Awesome.
Caleb Gray (49:22.258)
when I stepped down from work to give her the opportunity to progress her career and there's a number of like biblical conversations but then also societal like pressure conversations of how like how this impacts each of us with conversations we have in our everyday lives with what people will think of us, what people think of this decision.
And it's still, it's still a very, there's still stigma around it. So I think it's important as well for, for it to be spoken about that, yeah, women do have an incredible voice and an incredible gifting that God's placed in them to, to add value to organizations, to society, to cultures. And we definitely had a loss if we don't allow space for that.
And I think it's, I love the thought of if we can do this together, if men can encourage women and women can be encouraged by each other and encourage as well men to be able to have this space, then yeah, I think, man, how beautiful and flourishing, how much more beautiful and flourishing would society look, right?
aviviers@compassion.com.au (50:46.37)
Absolutely, and for me, I couldn't do anything that I do. I travel quite a bit for work. I have two children, one who has just started high school, one who is in the middle of primary school, and my husband and I very much co -parent in every way and are really supportive of one another's...
desire for growth and opportunities that are in front of us. And so if you had have asked me five years ago, you will get your skipper's ticket. I would have said there is no way in the world that I will be driving a boat. And now I sit here in 2024 with my own skipper's ticket and I am fiberglassing a boat and I'm leaning towards what is important to my husband in this season as he does towards what
Caleb Gray (51:25.557)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (51:35.317)
Awesome.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (51:45.156)
I am doing and I think that is the collaboration that the future is requiring of us and that it is not one voice above the other, it is not one at the detriment of another. If we had time, I would go into my review of the Barbie movie because I came out of that movie incredibly angry, which is so funny because I am a fierce advocate for women's voices.
Caleb Gray (52:05.239)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (52:09.431)
You and me both.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (52:15.028)
but I honestly my poor friend who came to the the launch of Barbie the Barbie movie in Perth with me had to hear my diatribe the whole way home to Rockingham because I was so angry and I think what I was angry about was for me it felt like a flip like
Caleb Gray (52:28.279)
Caleb Gray (52:32.823)
Right.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (52:33.154)
And the future is not flipping, the future is together. And the future is commonality rather than what makes us different. And the future is collaboration and the future is understanding and the future is creating contexts where the differences of our gender is actually celebrated. But at the same time, I live...
Caleb Gray (52:37.399)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (52:57.687)
Mm.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (53:03.81)
surrendered to my husband and his decisions and what he needs for the future as he does listen to mine and finds ways to do that. So it's probably a whole podcast episode but they're my thoughts.
Caleb Gray (53:14.455)
Yeah.
I think so. Yeah, we'll we'll have to get you back, Amanda. I definitely reckon there's a whole nother conversation there. And I love just like I'll ask you one more question to close off a real simple one. But just to finish off adding to to what you said, I think there's such amazing beauty that comes from being created differently, because it just the logical end of that is we need each other.
you can't build something if you don't have the different parts. It'll just be this jagged, awful structure. And it's something that I'm reminded of constantly in my marriage and then in friendships as well that the diversity that God's placed in society,
aviviers@compassion.com.au (53:47.745)
Yes.
Caleb Gray (54:14.489)
is really for his glory. It's to be able to see that, wow, we can't do this on our own. We're not like, we do have unique giftings and abilities and it's a beautiful thing when we bring those to the table and share it with one another. But the thing is we do need each other and I love what you're saying. So thanks so much for sharing that and.
Just in closing, what's something, if people are wanting to find out more about you, find your work or I know you do retreats and things like that as well. I saw you've got one coming up in Bali. I'm sure I'm not invited to that one, although I love Bali.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (55:03.682)
is coming but he will probably be at the pool. He will be at the pool. But yeah the best way is probably through social media. I used to write a lot more on my blog than I do at the moment but I am doing a series at the moment from Genesis that I referenced a little bit earlier and all of my books are linked to there. But...
Caleb Gray (55:09.241)
Brilliants.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (55:29.826)
If you see me, come say hello. I would love to meet you in person more than online. That's actually more important to me than anything. So I'm on radio every day. If you're from Perth, I co -founded Kin Women and we're on 98 .5 and our segments are every day there. And yeah, just start conversations that matter and do it in person if you can.
Caleb Gray (55:55.546)
Awesome. Well, yeah, thanks so much for your time, Amanda. It's been an absolute pleasure. And yeah, I feel like I've gleaned so much off of your enthusiasm, your joy and the life that you bring and have brought into this conversation. And yeah, thanks so much for sharing so openly as well with us.
aviviers@compassion.com.au (56:18.306)
No worries at all, have the best day.
