Chris Wienand
Key Takeaways
Episode Transcript
This transcript was generated automatically. Its accuracy may vary.
0:00
I have been compelled by Jesus and stirred by the beauty, wonder, and the absolute compelling nature of His bride.So if you want to understand me, you must understand how much I love Jesus and how beautiful His bride is.
0:19
Hey there, you're listening to the Upside Down People podcast Homegrown in Perth, WA.Regardless of how you found your way here today, we're so glad you're with us and hope you're encouraged by the conversations.We're currently in the series Blueprints of Belonging, where we are exploring how the gospel invites us out of isolation and into meaningful community, what the role the church plays in our lives as we search for belonging, and how both we and the church may engage within this cultural moment.
0:48
In today's episode, I'll have a conversation around the importance of building community through gathering around a table with Chris Vinund.Chris is a church planner, sought after mentor, and pastor in Southern California.We talk about some of the challenges and temptations the church faces amidst this cultural moment, and Chris shares his experiences and insights on the church alongside navigating a celebrity based and individual based culture.
1:13
Before we jump into it.Today's episode is sponsored by Covenant Eyes.They exist to help people foster healthy digital habits and create a safer online environment for everyone.Try it out for an entire month, absolutely free using our code Upside 30.So with that said, let's jump into today's conversation.
1:40
All right, well, welcome to the Upside Down People podcast.Chris V9.How are you going today?I had a great day.I'm here in Southern California.It's a beautiful day, quite warm as we're beginning to wrap up summer, which is invariably a scattering time, everyone going everywhere.
2:00
But it's fun to kind of regroup and re align ourselves to the adventure which lies for the rest of the year into next.So doing well.Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy doing what I do.I'm so jolly compelled by Jesus and his church, so every day feels like a new adventure, meeting beautiful people and doing fun stuff.
2:22
Awesome.Well, I'm glad I'm having a conversation with you and I'm glad that you're compiled by Jesus and loving his church because that's essentially the the conversation I want to have around church faith and culture.And before we jump into it, something I usually like doing with our guests, just to humanize them a bit, put a bit of flesh to the voice for the listeners is firstly, tell us something interesting about yourself or surprising about who Chris is.
2:51
And then next I'll, I'll, I'll jump into the next question after after you've answered that one.Sure, sure.I was sitting with someone at the local university this morning and he asked me a similar question and I thought, well, how do I answer that, really?
3:09
And I suppose, Caleb, the diversity of my story is what is most interesting for people in that I'm South African born and from a nominal Christian background.That's Reformed kind of methodistic thing where my folks sent us to satisfy their own conscience, I guess.
3:30
But it was at 18 at university, a very liberal university, very party university called Rhodes University in South Africa, that I encountered Christ in a very profound and meaningful way.So my introduction to faith was as a student with all of the doubts, uncertainties and vulnerabilities that comes with the philosophical wrestling that happened during those four 5-6 years.
3:54
Then I was already married and so I graduated as a school teacher but went to spend 2 years in the military.I was an infantry officer in the South African Defence Force under the apartheid regime.That's what we had to do and whilst not at all compelled by the political system of incredibly angered by it, I fulfilled my duty, left that after two years and became a school teacher.
4:22
And it was during that time, that was in 1983, that is a 24 year old, we planted our first church.So basically in about a 1214 month window.Well, actually, if you take it at a three-year time, I came to faith, graduated, I went to the army for two years, was a school teacher and then planted a church.
4:42
So that's set to the tone and tenure of a life really full of adventure.I got saved into a radical story that introduced me to a Christianity that's full of adventure.So when people say to me, oh, it's too boring, you know, it's too repetitive.
4:58
I am not compelled by either Jesus or the church.I'm honestly shocked because my story and that's just the intro few years, my story is the opposite.I have been compelled by Jesus and stirred by the beauty, wonder and the the the absolute compelling nature of his bride.
5:18
So if you want to understand me, you must understand how much I love Jesus, how beautiful His bride is.And probably thirdly, and I'll pause there, Caleb, Marilyn and I've been married for 44 years.
5:34
Awesome.Come November, she was 18 when we got married, I was 22 and we've been doing this thing together.So it's been a glorious partnership of adventure in faith whilst loving the church in all of her diversity.
5:49
So that's a little window to my soul.That's awesome.And it sounds like it started off with a bang and you've been running ever since as well.I think we're, we're just chatting beforehand and the amount of stuff that you fit in your day is crazy.
6:05
I I don't understand it, but you you get it done so well.When you launch something, it's not driven by how tired you are or whether you can do it or not.It just is the most compelling thing to wake up every morning and to love what you do and to look at the day and see all the beautiful people you're going to meet or you know, initiatives that you're involved with.
6:30
It keeps you going.Now, at the end of the day, I'm not a grumpy grandpa for sure.I chuckle my way through my own weariness.But it is a compelling story which I hope for everyone that that their life lived once is so compelling that even in their latter years, there's still the energy and the drive and the grace and mercy.
6:52
You still want to keep doing it.Awesome, I love that.So tell us about the church that you currently pastor and the cultural context that you find yourself in.Great.Well, can I take a half a step back?Please do and.Obviously back kind of is.
7:08
When we planted the our first church in 1983, we were all kids.We're all in that 20s and it was a glorious adventure.It was a time where ignorance was blessed.We didn't know what we didn't know and we just did what we saw in the Bible.Honestly, we just saw.We just saw fasting.
7:24
We thought, let's fast 25 days.So we just did a 2021.We did a 21 day fast in 1985 just because we saw it in the Scripture and when we read in the Bible and it said, you know, they, they danced before the Lord with all their might.
7:40
We said, well, let's dance before the Lord with all of our might.So it was radical, was passionate, and it was super fun.We were also involved in church planting, helping plant other churches initially around South Africa and then in different parts of the world.Now I'm saying all of that because those were the 2 anchor pieces that have carried me all of these years.
8:02
So about eight years ago, after I'd been working with churches really from 12 in allowance to 6000, I felt God begins to knock on the door of my heart and he said you've got one more in you and I laughed.
8:18
I mean I did the literal Sarah laugh.I thought this is hilarious.God laughed louder and longer and I knew that my back was pinned to the wall and I said, all right, Lord on one condition.I don't get a school hall get a band and makes a lot of money and and I say all of that, Kayla because it was very defining when you've been planting churches from the really involved with planning from the late 70s, but certainly the early 80s onward.
8:48
There is a formula or a format that begins to push repeat in your mind.And so to engage in that.We'll talk more about that in a moment.And then not knowing who would come to us.And I was 56 at the time.And generally in church planning circles, you get people who are five years older than you, five years younger than you.
9:10
And I thought, Oh my word, I don't want a church full of 50 somethings.Little did I know that actually what would happen is it would become and still is a very young community.Costa Mesa, CA is, it's a beautiful, eclectic city.
9:30
We're about sevens from the beach here in Newport.Very surfing culture.Colleges.There's a number of colleges nearby.The population is youngish, although there's quite a range.And so we found ourselves once again in a context not dissimilar to how we started in the 80s, except this time we were much older.
9:53
Merrill, at 52, went back to university to become a marriage and family therapist.So she was giving herself to that.But we planted this community, Caleb, and the demographic is exceptionally young.It's still the age range is 20 to 35.
10:10
We are the only 60 built in the church.We celebrated the other night.We had a dinner and there were 10 people over 50 in the church, which was great.Hilarious moment of joy because we prayed the men.But the demographic is young.It's 20 to 35 year olds college to just post college where there's dating and marriages and young people trying to find their way forward, their identity, their calling, their career, their relationships.
10:39
So it's a fun time.It's not something I've done specifically or intentionally, but somehow in the grace of God, it's a beach city with a bunch of young people.And we are finding helping them find their faith and their gospel adventure in a very promiscuous Southern California.
11:00
Awesome.And So what does that look like in the context that you've just described?How does church out work itself?I know you mentioned it's sort of you, you were surprised by the similar format to when you had your first plant in in South Africa.
11:17
But yeah, does it look different?Does it feel different?Are people asking different questions?What what is the the culture like in in terms of the church?Culture, Yeah, great, great question, great question.Wow, there are many pieces to that answer.
11:33
Let me let me take a particular check.One, I think what has astounded me and I have young kids.I have a 25 year old son, but then I have a 36 year old daughter and a 38 year old daughter who lives with you guys in Australia.
11:49
You know, I think the one thing that struck me instantly was the low grade trust of millennials and Genzias.Boomers still had a certain respect for people who led churches, but millennials and Genzias trust is not a given.
12:08
Certainly if you're an old white guy, that is definitely not a given.I've had people in our community for two years who did not kind of would say hi to me, but nothing much.And then two years later reach out to me and say, can we have a coffee?
12:24
And then they would say something like been in the church 2 years, been checking you out and I just want you to know now I can trust you.And so I've had to learn that there isn't an assumed trust positionally.I will you the pastor, we'll listen to you.Hey, I don't use that language.
12:40
I never refer to myself as the pastor.BII can assume that they don't trust me.That's probably closer to reality than what I'm used to historically #2 it's a generation filled with doubts.
12:59
Now, you can either combat that and try and hit it hard, and you shouldn't doubt and just lay shame and blame on people, or you can validate that.And you know, I think the doorway to faith is always doubt.I don't think anything we really believe deep with conviction has ever gone but through the gateway of doubt.
13:22
Now, the church, evangelical church historically does not like doubt.It views doubt as a negative posture.But I think in doing so, Caleb, we erase the mystery.Christianity is a mystery.There's a mystery to our faith.We can't cross every T and dot every I.
13:39
I know we and evangelicals want to, but the reality is if we can cross every T and dot every I, our guard is too small because that means we can take the the eternally divine and squeeze it into our minds and somehow know that we've got God sorted.
13:58
And so I really enjoy taking people on the journey that goes through the doorway of their doubts, conversations around their doubts.I sat with a guy here the other day, classic.His dad had been a pastor, went to Christian schools, Christian University.
14:17
And he said to me, he's now 28.He says, Chris, I don't think I believe that anymore.And we had a wonderful hour coffee together.And I just empowered him to go on the journey of doubt.Not that doubt is the ultimate goal, but faith is, discovery of truth is, and finding out really who Jesus was both historically as an incarnation human, but also as the divine part of the Trinity, etcetera, etcetera.
14:48
I just trust God that much, Caleb, that people can go through.My own son went through that.My girls didn't, but my boy did, you know, went to a very progressive liberal university as a surfer.He was in the water all the time and came back from college and he said, well, I don't actually know what I believe.
15:06
That's fine, my boy.Let's walk.Let's let's take this journey together.Should I keep going or do you want to hit drive?No.Oh.I'll, I'll interrupt you there.I want you to keep going.Don't get me wrong.So I'm, I'm just sort of picturing I'm, I'm a parent to a young daughter.
15:22
I can't imagine how it would be like watching your child go through doubt and almost like you said at the start, Jesus is everything to you.You, you're just absolutely besotted with him.
15:39
So then seeing your child go through doubt is, is that not like anxiety inducing?Is that not scary for for parents?I went to my son when he was at college and I set him T I said, I just want to thank you.
15:57
And he said, Dad, what for?I said, you have improved my prayer life.And he laughed.He thought it was the funniest thing because it does.I mean, you got a lay hold of God.There were times with my boy.I have a kind of a prayer walk that's depends on how wet and when I turn.
16:14
But it's along the Back Bay here in Newport Harbor and probably an hour, hour and a half sometimes.And I know there are times I, I could only pray one prayer for him.I prayed all my prayers, but I just said to the Lord over and over again, your Kingdom come, your will be done in tease life over and over and over again, almost like an A mantra.
16:37
Because I prayed all my cerebral prayers, all my knowledge prayers, I knew I needed to pray another prayer.And I mean, it's beautiful.I walked into his room the other day.He's temporarily staying with us as he moved from San Diego here and his hand was up worshiping the Lord and reading his Bible.
16:56
And it was a journey to get there and I had to move from apologist to prayer to prayer to prayer warrior.So yes, it's not what you want your kids to go through, but if it means that their faith is stronger, if it means that they come out with more conviction and every child will go through that time, Caleb, where it's not what my dad and mom believed and I'm a strong personality, but it's what I believe.
17:27
And for the girls that were shorter, for T it was longer and I'm OK with that.Yeah, I can just, yeah, I can just imagine how I went through a stage as well of, of question and doubt.And I saw the impact that it had on my parents, but I didn't feel it in in that sense.
17:46
So you could see how they, they wanted me to have something good and they knew what good was.But yeah, that, that tension, I just, I just empathized so, so deeply with with parents who are who are going through that and how much trust it does take in, in Jesus, 'cause you really don't have any control over the situation, right?
18:09
No, you don't.Yeah, absolutely.So you you mentioned in, in terms of the, the going back to the culture that you see in the church, you mentioned there's a low grade trust that's a generation filled with doubts and, and questioning.And then almost there's this deconstruction happening as well of.
18:28
Absolutely.Anything from from the past what?What other things have you noticed within posturing or within building at the church in Costa Mesa?Yeah, Yeah.So the deconstruction piece is massive.
18:44
I mean, as we all know, anyone has been around the church and the overwhelming body of literature and podcasts and the like that have almost selected, presented.I mean, do you still believe that stuff?You know, did you still think the church is relevant today?
19:00
So you are fighting that and you know, the average church pastor preaches maybe a 30 minute message, 40 minute message once a week, but people are being bombarded by that every day.So you are fighting against a very pervasive world and worldview.
19:19
And again, my boomer leadership model of the 90s, which was more alpha male chest beating, come on, suck it up cowboy, let's do this thing just doesn't resonate with a new generation who are asking different questions, who approach life differently and even church.
19:40
And so I've always looked Caleb when these kind of things happen.My question is, yes, there's deconstruction, but what part of that is God?What part of that is God trying to get our attention that the way in which we do church, whilst fabulous for the 90s and maybe even 2000s, twenty years later in a different time.
20:01
In a different context is not the way we could or to do church.And so I'm looking not like I am an optimist, but not because I'm an optimist.I'm so prophetically curious.My radar is up.God, what are you doing?And fortunately I've got great friends like John Macoma, John Tyson, Mark Saunders and others that I can reference and say, hey, guys, talk to me here.
20:25
You know, I, I need some culture interpretation here.What's going down?What part of that is God?What part of that is the devil, so to speak?What part of that is just social evolution so that I can be on my tippy toes, not in reaction to put your big boy pants on, but in leadership with a gentle hand with with a tender shepherd's grasp of them as they wrestle with it.
20:51
One of my favorite moments, Caleb, this story is I had a young intern from a local university.He was fatherless and I'll explain that in a moment and went through the deconstruction phase.And we sat in his lounge, recently married, probably 24 years old, and he just went off on deconstruction.
21:12
And I mean, he just got himself so wound up and so passionate and, you know, he was F bombing me and just going for it, you know?And I just reached out and I held him and I said to him, I wouldn't mention his name, although he tells the story publicly.
21:28
I said, I want you to know I'll never leave you.You will go through this journey.You will come out the other side.And I'm OK with that.And he just sobbed on my chest.You know, he's one of our elders now, one of our primary worship leader teachers.
21:44
But he had to go through that doorway and I had to allow him to and just walk alongside him.You know, John Mark loves quoting the idea of the rabbi.He says that we've a rabbi of yesteryear said something like, we've got to carry the dust of our rabbi on our clothing, something to that effect.
22:03
And, and, and I needed him to have the freedom to wrestle with those things.Now he sits on the other side, espousing strong Orthodoxy, believing in what we're trying to build.But it took him a couple of years to find that, and I was OK with that.
22:20
The other thing I just want to say, culturally, we have found an overwhelming number of the young people who come our way, Caleb, come from broken families, not the same mom and dad in the same home with the same siblings, where there's Jesus loving, sweet moments of fellowship and dining room table experiences and doing life together and scriptures and prayers.
22:45
That doesn't exist.We have very, very few people who have that as the story.The overwhelming story is brokenness, at least a divorce, but most times more than that.Sam, one of the girls in our community, was homeless from 12 to 17.
23:03
Her dad died of heroin addiction, is my mom died as an alcoholic.The court gave it to her older brother, who just basically said do whatever you want to.And so by the time she came into our community, you must know there's a lot of work that has to be done by the depth of a brokenness.
23:19
And she's one of my choice, our leaders in our community.She's just the star heads up our work with homeless people, Needless to say.And her and her husband run a table community.So that is a further factor to add to the list of cultural contexts that we find, nevermind the philosophical ones of postmodernity, just some of the functional sociological realities of the people that we're loving and leading.
23:47
Yeah.That's yeah, I find that super fascinating.So when it comes to distinguishing sort of like what is unhelpful in like that cultural narrative and what is just like a process that someone is going through and and God's with them.
24:06
When it comes to thinking about like the church and faith, what temptations and and challenges do do people have when it's going through that that process?Probably, and I don't know if I'm answering your question, but let me give you an answer and then you tell me.
24:23
Figures what you're asking.Probably rampant individualism.Yeah.It's so steeped here in Southern California, the Canadian philosopher Charles Taylor said, that we live in a world of rampant individualism.
24:41
And so the instinct is to self solve, self soothe, almost self educate and community has taken a very low grade priority.And remember I grew up in Africa.
24:57
My ministry was forged in Africa.I was 38 when I moved here.So community is way more pivotal to an African mind and an African culture.I was startled and stunned when I came here how rampant the individualism is.
25:14
And so amidst all of that, and I haven't spoken about anxiety and related mental health issues, there is this instinct to disengage a bit like the God, you know, in Acts, in Genesis chapter 3, when they had pursued their own rebellion against God, they had, they covered themselves, they were ashamed that they were naked and they hid from God isolation.
25:43
And that permeates Southern California.Isolation, disconnection.I'm going to solve it.The great anthem that shaped that of the 90s was really Frank Sinatra.I did it my way.So the parents shifted from a community based sociology and the kids and the grandkids now live fully invested with a a an individualism of self solving.
26:10
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26:30
Try it out for an entire month, absolutely free using our code Upside 30.Let's dive back into the conversation and.That is such danger.Christianity is designed by a Heavenly Father, the Trinity, to be a community adventure.
26:49
It's not written as an eye adventure, but so much of what is taught from the Southern California pulpits and then tried to live was a very selfish, self preoccupied thing.Now that doesn't help.As you will know, the millennial Gen.Z mind who is already reluctant to commit.
27:08
I was sitting with, who was I sitting with the last day or two and just having a conversation around this thing.And I was at the university meeting with some students yesterday.And just how the culture, even if you're invited to a party, the kind of the text, the thread thing is, well, I'm not sure there's no commitment in case a better party pops up between now and then.
27:36
So now.Does that work with a local church and like the the commitment to is there, would you say there's like an importance to be committed to a local church or Yeah.Yeah, absolutely.So, so the story here in in Southern California, and I don't want to be unkind because I love the church, but it's almost like mob rule.
27:59
So whatever is the new cool church or the new cool vibe or the new guest speaker, the people up and go there.So there's a really cool church.I help them planted in the early days, probably about 30 minutes from here, but they rocking right now.
28:16
And so you find this, this group of people who are now headed there, that's the new cool church.But I've been around long enough to know that there's going to be a new cool church and then they up and go there.So you feel super good about yourself because you've grown by 300 in six months.
28:34
I haven't really, You've had people who follow this mystical cloud of priorities or coolness or sexy and they go like that.So that is just sadly feeding into the narrative of I don't want to commit.
28:51
I go to where they actually said to me, the students, did we go where everyone else goes.So hey, where are you guys going to church tonight?OK, cool, we'll go as well.So you have to create the alternative narrative, and it's not by trying to convince the many.
29:08
Jesus never tried to convince the many.What he did is he gave the few a new story.And really that's what we're doing.We invest in the few and we build that out so the few in our community looks like this.
29:24
We have table communities which is what we call them because the table is such a high value for us.So what would the?Example across.Sorry, just in terms of for, for people who may not be familiar or understand table community, what, what would that look like or or what does that look like in your church?
29:42
Yeah, thank you.It basically came from the idea, Caleb, that when I asked the Lord, can I, can I do this in a way?And we preachers are horrible.We always talk like we and God have this really cool conversation.So the best of my ability to hear God, I, I, I looked at Acts chapter 2 from 36 to 47 and I must have read it.
30:05
I don't know how many thousands of times and preached on it how many thousands of times, But I said there's something in here that I haven't seen.Now, when we were taught to be scouts in the Army, what they did is they teach you to scan from right to left.
30:21
So our natural reading is left to right.And if you read like I do, I kind of jump words.I just want to get the idea and, and move along.But when you scan the opposite way to what you normally read, your eye corrects all the time.
30:37
It's fighting you.And that gives you a greater probability if there is an enemy out there to see them.You know, a flash, a, a weapon outline or something rather, you've got a greater probability.So I said, all right, Lord, I'm going to read this passage in the same way.
30:54
I'm going to read it from right to left.And as I read, as I grabbed the pencil and started doodling, and I think two things struck me.One, Peter, when they asked him kind of, you know, how does all this work?He said, this is for you, your children and those who are far off.
31:14
And I thought I know how to do boomer church, but your children, my son was 17, my daughter was 30 to 32.And I thought I don't know how to do millennial church and those who are far off.And I thought, well, the uttermost part of the earth, which is my passion.I'm a church planter, but also locally who is the church rejected?
31:34
For example, the Albuquerque community.And I'm not affirming, but still they're people of Jesus love and we're not doing a great job with.So that was the front end and then the back end that caught my I owe so powerfully.The only thing in that passage that was mentioned three times is they ate together.
31:54
It wasn't worship, it wasn't Bible study, it wasn't fellowship.It was they ate together.They ate three times.And you know, when there's like the light goes on and the light went on and I thought, Oh my word, I've been preaching for gosh, since I was 18.
32:13
I've never seen that the primary thing in the early church was the table.Then you take half a step back.The only thing Jesus said when you do this, do this in memory of me was the table, the bread and the wine.Then I googled earth out to 30,000 feet and I realized the fall was what?
32:35
A meal in the garden they ate, the fruit they shouldn't eat.What is the back end of the Bible?The marriage supper of the lamb.And I thought, this is crazy, this is driving me nuts.Then I looked at the old covenant and every major thing that happened was a feast, the feast of this, the feast of that.
32:53
And so there's this thread of eating together.Then I go to Jesus and one commentator said everything Jesus did was on his way to a feast or to meal and a meal or on the way from a meal.
33:09
Think of the road to Emmaus with those two men.Yeah, You know, it was like, Oh my gosh, this is everywhere.And then I looked at it architecturally.And here I thank John Mark for his perspective because when we look at the architecture of the church, think about it, until the Reformation, so for 1500 years, the central architectural piece of every church was the table was communion.
33:37
It wasn't the pulpit.Now, it wasn't always well done, and that's another conversation.But the the reformers came and they replaced the table with the pulpit.And suddenly we shifted from the table being the central focus of fellowship into the pulpit.
33:55
And that changed the design of church buildings.I mean, it's just mind boggling.So we started here in our home around the table, not desiring to grow per SE, but both community and building community.Caleb, takes time, you know that.
34:10
I mean, you and Haley, it takes time to build a marriage.You know, it takes time with your little one joining you, and then you build a community, the three of you.It just takes time.And I said, Lord, please don't let us grow yet.Let us do life around the table.And so on Sunday nights, we would have between 40 and 50 people for dinner.
34:28
And it was wonderful.And then another door opened to us.So that's how we started around the table.And there's another conversation which you may want to pick up on.So that is still a high value for us, the table.
34:44
We eat together as often as we can.It's also secondly, Caleb, a cultural thing.I realized, you know, this gospel is to go to all nations.What is it every nationality is proud of?It's their food, right?Even the Brits, even the Brits with blooming pokers and mash, you know, they're so proud of it.
35:06
Thank the Lord it's now Indian food.But but every culture loves, loves, loves their food.And so you sit down and instantly there's a cultural dissolving.Everyone has a common space.And so I watched Every Chef's Table on Netflix.
35:25
I thought, I've got to learn about the table because there's a whole lot of good stuff in here that's evidenced in the Scriptures, evidence in the early church that we can rediscover and the fact that it crosses so many cultural divides.
35:41
And last little comment.So what one of the things we did is we went around the So we ate every Sunday night and everyone brought food, but not Butler.I hate Butler.Don't bring your rolls from last night's BBQ that you didn't eat.It's got to be a lavish feast.
35:57
And so we literally started.Then we went around the world.We started with Japan and we put recipes on the website and this is how you cook Japanese food to China, to Thailand, to Vietnamese.And we just ate around the world and was a fabulous culinary experience and taught.
36:14
These young people have been mad at your salad who ate at McDonald's all the time.Maccers.I had to teach them how to cook and how to eat salads and and I was a great adventure and it's still.That's awesome.I, I find that fascinating in terms of like how much discipleship happens around the table.
36:33
And it's interesting that you mentioned like that when the pill pit was removed from being sorry, when the table was removed and replaced by the pill pit.It's almost like that, that answering into individualism, like the focus is on a single, the focus is on the self.
36:54
How what do you think the church needs to change?Or what else do you think the church needs to change in how she engages with culture?Yeah, so again, a multi faceted answer and I'm sure I can't do justice to it.
37:09
You know, when we look at the Church of the Scriptures and then every major, whether we call them renewal, revival, reformation, whatever you want to call them, yeah, there seems to be a divide.
37:25
Intention to empower the many.I'm a history lover.That's my my degree.And I'm a historian.So I find great joy in looking at what happened with those key moments.I was at Asbury where they had the recent revivals.
37:43
I was asked to speak to the leadership shortly afterwards.And so I went to a place called Cambridge, which is about 40 minutes from Asper.And it's, it's amazing.I mean, that revival there in I think it was 1789, My mind is a little skewed by it.
38:07
It was still the frontier.It was in Kentucky.It was still a frontier.And this young guy, 20 something, got up to preach in the signable church, which still stands.They they've retained it.And the power guard just came and there was just wait, the wagon people started coming.I mean, there's no social media, there's no newspapers, there's nothing people just sort of coming.
38:27
And the frontiers people, these are tough people who are still fighting Indian wars.And they just came.And there was an estimated 20 to 30,000 people at its peak.And I had no idea how they were fed.I mean there were no shops to go and buy stuff.It's a credible thing.And I was just reading the story and what amazes me, whilst they attribute to the trigger to a man, actually no one can really take the glory because every major move of God empowers the many.
39:00
It's afterwards that we do the same thing again, which is to empower the preacher, the worship leader, the administrator, and we default to the big three.And I think the tragedy of the church is not we, we, we.We're not looking for a leaderless model, But what we are asking in theological terms is the priesthood of all believers.
39:24
In philosophical terms, it's mobilizing the many.In sociological terms, it is allowing people to operate in the gifts and callings that God has given them more than their talents.Talents are beautiful.They're the things God gives to us in both the gifts of that which we get from our point of salvation and the Holy Spirit empowerment.
39:46
They are not things that I can learn.I can't just learn to become a prophet.I can't just learn to operate in the word of knowledge.They are sovereign gifts God gives by His grace to empower us all to minister together.A whispering comment.
40:03
Isn't that amazing?That no book in the New Testament ever refers to the lead pastor, senior pastor, the vicar, None.It's about 100 years in that they start having bishops emerge.
40:20
It wasn't there in the early days.Now I'm not fighting, but it reminds me, and I've been leading for 40 years.But it reminds me of divine intent.I do my job when I empower the many.What does the thesis force say?Do we equip the Saints for the work of the ministry?
40:37
When I stand before God one day, Caleb, I don't think he's going to say to me, So Chris, tell me, how many nations did you preach in?How many churches?How big were the churches?He's going to say, did you empower my people?Were they mobilized for this great adventure of faith?
40:54
Or did they just have to sit and listen to you do it week in and week out?And I think there's going to be an account for what really is a celebrity driven model of ministry rather than an empowering of the many.
41:10
I was a sabbatical last summer, first time ever.And my granddaughter who lives in Perth said to me, Papa, so tell me, are you the primary appreciate for church?And I said, I guess so.And she said, but what does that mean?I said, well, you know, last summer we had 30 different people preach.
41:27
And she threw herself back in a chair and she said, wow, that brings me joy.Do I love preaching?100%.I love the art, the craft, the skill, the word smithing, bringing truth, hopefully revelation.But there's a great dissatisfaction and that is seeing the stumbling, stuttering words of someone doing it for the first time, knowing there's potentially a global impacting preacher that we allowing the first opportunity to open the scripture.
41:59
So I think it's part of that evolving landscape that we have to remind ourselves it's not about us and the crowds do our drawn to a celebrity.Yeah, it's not about us.It's about us empowering everyone into the global gospel adventure, operating fully in the gift set that God uses them in.
42:21
Brilliant.The big question I'd say there is that's very counter cultural because if you're in a culture where the celebrity is celebrated or the the person with the most followers or or engagement on their social media account or whatever, they come from a large church.
42:41
People are drawn to to that.So you almost counter culturally dying to yourself and sort of elevating others up.How Yeah.How does how do you work through those those tensions and those challenges where I'm sure the culture constantly wants to drive you to the pulpit, wants to drive you to the center of the operation?
43:06
Yeah, yeah, it is kind of cultural.Everything about the church is kind of cultural.Anyone just has to read the Sermon on the Mount. so-called to realize.Oh, damn, This is this is different.This is not at all like that.But certainly in Southern California, the celebrity is king.
43:24
I mean, I remember arriving here, you know, S Africans just played New Zealand rugby and South Africa played in New Zealand.But here, when I first got to in 96, I was startled.I knew nothing really about American sports.And the Lakers was playing, let's say, the Boston Celtics.
43:43
And they'd say the Lakers are playing the Boston Celtics.Kobe Bryant is playing whoever.And I thought, no, he isn't.The five people on the court plus another 5 on the benches, there are 10 of them playing 10 people.No, no, no, no, it's Kobe.Play whoever.
43:59
What is startling perspective.It's a celebrity driven culture.So the Kingdom is extremely countercultural in the space now.Part of the millennial cry is they want to be seen and heard.
44:18
They don't want to sit behind watching to the beyond one else's head all the time.Generally they expect that, you know, someone's going to speak or leave or do something.And so a couple of things we've done and and Caleb, honestly, by no doubt, I mean, we're not this crazy large church.
44:36
We're experimenting, we're exploring.I'm OK with risk.A couple of illustrations.We have what we call an Apprentice Sunday.I got the idea from someone else.I'm not that clever, but on Apprentice Sunday, everything that happens, happens by someone for the first time.
44:57
You name it, someone's doing it for the first time.And it took a while to teach people that.Now when we announce Apprentice something, there's hooting and hollering and shouting and applauding.And when someone gets up, even if they fluff their lines and preach badly, you know the community is backing them because they're not mentioned.
45:16
Excuse me?By the yardstick of celebrityism, they are being measured by the anticipation of a future and they just is joy in the house and that I mean, we have lemons.We're sure.You know, we could have someone lead worship and it's very average.
45:34
It doesn't matter because we're not trying to do ourselves by the excellence of the moment.We're trying to measure ourselves by the movement immobilization of people in their Jesus adventure.And so you have to just create another cultural understanding, another way of doing church.
45:53
And I'm in August now.This month we didn't have one person preach.We just had what we call an encounter month.And that is we just worship and we loved it.That was amazing.I was in two, I was on vacation for two of the weeks and we had one average Sunday, 3 phenomenal Sundays.
46:13
And we're not Sunday centric.I'm using Sunday examples.I close church on a Sunday in a heartbeat and we do or we say, hey, we're going to, we're going to meet at lifeguard station 32.We're going to just gather there on Sunday.I intentionally break any drift towards Sunday centricity because our our true life is built around our tables that happen around the city during the week.
46:38
Love the Sunday space, love corporate worship, love ministering, praying, prophesying.You know, opening up the scriptures, but never driven by Sunday centricity.Brilliant.
46:54
So we've talked a lot about the culture and just the the tendencies and the pools that it has.So one thing that I've got is like we live in a very celebrity based culture.There's high performance, there's production, there's busyness, your values based on what you do.
47:16
And the question that I'd have is like, how do we navigate a journey of slow sanctification so slowing our lives down in this process of discipleship?Great question.
47:32
Let me add this in just quickly while I'm thinking about it.Get away from the stage.You know what we do is we have all our musicians facing each other like a three quarters circle.And then we have a long table, if you know that you've been there, in which all of the beautifully decorated big loaves of bread and wine and grape juice.
47:53
Because we want the table, once again to be the Central High point of our gathering.Nothing else.Not the preach, not the worship, not the storytelling announcements, but the table.And we want to climax there every time we gather.Just give me your question again if you don't mind.
48:11
No worries.So I just want to say like, I do love that, that, that visual and the intentionality behind the way you guys gather and putting the table at the center and removing, like you're saying the, the, the pill pit from the high place and, and just making those physical moves.
48:32
But they're very intentional 'cause they, they feed into our subconscious, right?And bringing it back to, well, the purpose is we're, we're gathering together, we're building community, we're discipling one another.So I love that.So the question was, how do we navigate a journey of slow sanctification in our lives?
48:51
It emits all the busyness, all the production where the culture constantly says like your, your value is based in what you do.Yeah, yeah, great question.Let me go back to something I said 40 minutes ago.
49:08
We've got to create an environment of trust for people to bear their souls.They have to know that it's trustworthy, that there's high confidence, that there is a spirit of vulnerability and transparency.And it starts with us.
49:23
So Marilyn and I decided years ago, that's my wife, that we would live in a, in a journey of vulnerability with our communities.And this is the third one we're leading now.Not that you get up every Sunday and say these are my 5 sins, but there's a general genre of, you know, we drive to community and Maryland, I have a fight or a difference of opinion or whatever and then get up on a Sunday and say, guys, just Full disclosure, Maryland, I had a fight on the way here and we both feeling a bit tender.
49:59
I mean, people aren't shocked.They're not like, Dang, he's the, he's the leader.How come they have that?You know, it's like, yay, cool.So by modeling your own vulnerability and transparency, it gives people A and the growing sense of they can be that if the leaders can be.
50:19
Then on Sunday I was preaching a new series on content, and the essential idea is that Jesus said in John eight that Diablos, the devil is a liar and the father of lies.In fact, that's his native language.
50:35
And so I asked the congregation, So what is the lie the devil uses against you all the time?And then I went around the room with a microphone, started with Meryl, always starts with us.So, babe, all right, She didn't know I was going to do that.So what is the lie that the enemy keeps telling you?And she said, actually that I'm not good enough.
50:52
Then I leant across to one of the other elders and say, well, what is yours?And he said, I'll never be free.And I went around the room and you could just feel this liberty like, oh, wow, oh, wow.Then I said, these are some of the some of the lies the enemy sits on your shoulder.
51:09
But we had an incredible time of communion and then prosecuting it in our table communities because it starts with us.And I told the community the lie the enemy uses against me by modeling it, by giving people freedom to see this.
51:27
Chris and Meryl don't put on a front.This is not their best Sunday cool hip outfit and they're going to smile and be happy.This is the the place of vulnerability transparency that gives them opportunity to do so.Thirdly, Christianity is a plural sport.
51:47
It's a team sport.And so by helping people understand that so much of their sanctification is not an individual's, well, this is not tennis, you know, you played against the devil to be sanctified.This is a team sport, rugby if you wish, or footy.
52:04
I love footy, it's a team sport.We are completely dependent on those around us and we create a culture and environment where our table communities have both.There are deep conversations.
52:19
Our table communities to a fault, don't like growing because they go so deep with each other.That you have a stranger come into the midst is sometimes really difficult.And we're living that tension for sure.But Caleb, if we can create by model, vulnerability and transparency, the key to sanctification, then we do it by message with teacher, then we practice it in community, and then fourthly, give people permission to be on the long journey.
52:53
It's through faith and patience.We inherit the promises.We do live in a quick fix society.And I want to go to the burger place and I want to get my double, double animal style.And I want to leave.I want to do it in 15 minutes.
53:08
Got to love you well.It's the Kingdom.Oh, I know, man.I know.I'm on a keto diet right now, so I'm all for the hobs, which is such a bug because I'm celebrating for an animal style prize.But the point, Caleb, is simply this, that we, we, we create this environment.
53:29
It's a slow burn.Faith and patience.This is going to take you.I'm 66.I say to them sometimes and I've come, I came to faith as an 18 year old and I've been doing this.What is this almost 50 years now?And you know what?I'm still being transformed into his image and his likeness and it's still a daily decision.
53:49
And there's still times I fail and I'm still accountable at my age.I'm still accountable.I've got a man who's a pastor to me who will set me down and say to me, how's your love life?How are you Merrill doing?You know, how's your your computer viewing going?
54:05
You'll hold me to account because although I'm 66, I'm still human and I've got frailties and I've got brokennesses.I'm on a journey to wholeness.So by modelling the message, I hope to empower community for which vulnerability and transparency is our language.
54:23
Awesome, brilliant.Well, thanks so much for.Yeah, all, all of those thoughts and insights and wisdom.Chris, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and yeah, I've got so many other thoughts and questions that I'd have for you, but don't want to hold you too long.
54:40
But yeah, thanks so much for for having this conversation and carving out the time in in your day.It's a pleasure man, always love chatting with you.Please send love to Haley.I'm not sure we will be out to Australia again but look forward to seeing Y'all and thanks for inviting me.
54:58
Hopefully some of it is helpful to you, the viewer listener, and if any of them want to connect with me, you know, please feel free to that's, that's our jam.We love empowering people of their God story, whether it's through doubt or whether it's through celebration.
55:17
We're comfortable with both.God bless you man.
