Me-Centric Culture, Digital Delusions & Empowering Youth Noddy Sharma
Caleb Gray (00:00.69)
Well, I'm joined here with Noddy Sharma. How are you going?
Noddy Sharma (00:06.797)
I'm really well, thanks Caleb, how are you man?
Caleb Gray (00:09.234)
Yeah, doing well. I was going to go say it over in sunny Perth, but it's been a bit heading into winter, so a bit colder on these mornings over here. How's it like? You're in Sydney, right?
Noddy Sharma (00:22.605)
Melbourne, I'm in Melbourne. So not so sunny.
Caleb
Something I'd like to do with my guests is just bring some flesh to who they are, humanize them a bit for our listeners, perhaps who can't see your shining face. So maybe you can share two things. One is what is something that people may find surprising about you? And then the second one is obviously this is we have gospel -sensitive conversations with people who love Jesus. So...
Noddy Sharma (01:22.829)
Hahaha.
Caleb Gray (01:38.417)
What is the story of how Jesus has transformed your life?
Noddy Sharma (01:46.541)
Two big questions, mate, and good ones to start with, right? So I think a surprising thing about me is I missed out on the Aussie Open by a shot playing golf full -time, you know, when I came out of uni and stuff, and it was one of those defining moments that brings pain and joy in retrospect, right? Pain in the sense of your dreams shattering in a moment, you think, my goodness, this is never gonna work, and you know, it just all comes tumbling down, but.
You know, when you look back, you see God's hand in it. And that led to me doing an internship at a church where I was on staff there for about eight years. And it just kept going from there. And you couldn't orchestrate this stuff, right? So looking at the way that God worked was incredible. So there's something that probably, you know, is a bit of a surprise about me. And then in terms of encountering Jesus, you know what? I came out of a troubled youth background. You know, my dad had died when I was...
almost nine years old, everything just kind of came collapsing down in my world, found myself in some bad company and just was a long way away from God. And it's not that I ever thought that he stopped existing, it's literally that I felt like, you know what, I can't reconcile God telling me he's a God of love when he would take away my dad who was my Superman. And so it's almost like I even subconsciously decided I'm gonna actively work against him and prove that he isn't a God of love.
Caleb Gray (03:02.963)
Well...
Noddy Sharma (03:11.981)
And I remember at 18, I'd met some guys who were beautiful Christian men, young guys, and didn't matter how rough or I was around the edge, it didn't matter how rude I was to them, they just kept turning up. And eventually I saw the fingerprints of God in their lungs and I just recognized that I want that in my life. And so I just had this moment where I encountered Jesus and at 18, it just changed everything. And it was like this radical, almost Paul moment.
Caleb Gray (03:24.532)
Wow.
Noddy Sharma (03:40.685)
of that Damascus Road thing, of encountering Jesus and just watching myself be completely transformed over the next three months. Now, still a work in progress, right? Like there's always stuff that Jesus is doing in us, but that moment for me when I encountered him 18 was pretty spectacular and something I look back on and I'm very grateful to God for.
Caleb Gray (04:01.587)
That's amazing. Two quick thoughts on that. Well, rewinding just a slight second in terms of, so you mentioned you missed out the Aussie Open by a shot. For those listening, you're not referring to tennis, right? You're referring to golf.
Noddy Sharma (04:19.405)
No, I'm referring to golf. And I'm talking like a long time ago now, right? So we're talking 26 years ago. So it's a long time ago. It's a long time in my past. But yes, you know, those moments in life where the disappointment is so big that it will last a lifetime. That was that moment for me.
Caleb Gray (04:29.939)
Right.
Caleb Gray (04:40.725)
Yeah, that's incredible. It's not every day I get to talk to a professional, ex -professional golfer. So that's very interesting. Do you still have a swing every now and then?
Noddy Sharma (04:47.721)
X. Yeah. I still play and I still enjoy it. It's good fun. It's a good sport that you can play for a long time. So yeah, I still enjoy it a lot.
Caleb Gray (05:02.998)
Yeah, very cool. So you hit 18. Yeah, God obviously radically transforms your life, your perspective, the direction you're headed. So bring us to this present day. What do you find yourself doing and why have you started doing what you're doing?
Noddy Sharma (05:26.029)
Yeah, so again, great question, man. You know, from that moment when I encountered Jesus and then, you know, Mr. On the Aussie Open, ended up in church, you know, I passed it in church for about 12 years. Then I had this moment with God where I just felt like, and it coincided with turning the same age my dad was when he first got cancer, right? And he battled with it for about five years and then passed away at 39. And I remember on my 34th birthday, kind of waking up and I was just.
overwhelmed, I couldn't stop crying. And when I looked at it, the reason, you know, when I stopped and reflected was that before dad died, he'd written me a letter. And in the letter, he outlined all his hopes and his dreams for my life. And I realized by the age of 34, I pretty much subconsciously checked off all those things on that list. And I really wanted to hear him say he was proud of me. And I knew that I in this lifetime, I wouldn't hear that. And it was, I was just deeply sad Caleb, I just didn't know what to do with it. Anyway,
I ended up being invited to preach at a friend's church, you know, for their anniversary weekend and a whole weekend, it was full on. At the end of it, you know, I'd been praying this prayer for the months leading up to it of God, take this away from me, you know, show me that it's your voice that I need to be chasing, it's you that I need to know that's proud of me and give me the courage to say yes for whatever's next because I'm acutely aware that time can be short. And you know, at the end of that, that preaching time,
A guy comes and he sits down next to me straight after the church service and just sits just that little bit too close. You know those moments of like, what's going on here? And I just, I literally just had this God moment of him dropping into my head and just saying, hey, shake this man's hand, I'm about to give you a gift. And I reached over and I shook this guy's hand and I said, hey, I'm Noddy. And he turned around and he goes, I know who you are, in fact, I knew your dad. And the minute he said that, my ears pricked up. I'm like, what? You knew my dad?
Caleb Gray (06:58.526)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (07:21.645)
And he started talking about the fact that when he was a young man, like 19, he went on this work party to Papua New Guinea where my dad was a pilot. And he said, your dad was one of the first people that I met. And I just observed him, got to know him. And all I could see when I looked at him was just Jesus. He goes, the way that he spoke to people, what he did, the choices he made, the way he turned up, he goes, it was incredible. He said, so much so that when I got back from that work party, I became serious about my faith.
and I thought I wanna be like that man. And he said, I just wanna tell you that I've listened to you speak all weekend. I've watched how you interact with people and a lot of what I saw in your dad I see in you and I just want you to know he'd be really proud. And so of course I burst into tears, right? I'm like, man, that's incredible. And he looked at me like, what just happened? I told him everything that had been going on, gave him this big hug. It was an amazing moment. Anyway, I'm on the plane coming home and again, I encountered this.
Caleb Gray (07:50.709)
Well.
Caleb Gray (08:02.229)
wow.
Noddy Sharma (08:20.205)
this moment with God that will stay with me until I see him face to face. And it was almost like this conversation I had with him where he just said, you know, don't you think it's amazing that you only knew your dad for nine years? I'm like amazing and sad. He said, yeah, he said, but even though in that nine years you haven't seen him for all these years later, someone can still recognise similarities between you. I'm like, yeah, that's incredible. He said, that's DNA. It's one of my favourite things.
Caleb Gray (08:47.67)
ever.
Noddy Sharma (08:47.853)
He goes, but let me tell you why my voice is more powerful and why it's more important that you hear from me. He said, because you only knew your dad for nine years, but Nottie, I've known you since the beginning of time. I've known you from the moment you even thought of it. I've known you in terms of exactly how I've put you together. And more powerful than DNA, I've created my image in you. And I've done that for every human on the planet. So you want to know what reconciliation looks like back to me and for helping people find their identity, help them see me.
Caleb Gray (08:59.446)
Wow.
Noddy Sharma (09:18.093)
And it was just this defining moment of, wow, that's incredible. And from there, there was someone in that congregation that was part of a missions movement that heard me speak. They contacted me and asked me to become the CEO of a missions movement that was global. And I didn't know experience in that, but yet I said, yes, that was the courage part to step into it. Did that for about eight years, took some time off and then World Vision for the last five. And...
Caleb Gray (09:18.71)
Well.
Caleb Gray (09:38.102)
Wow. Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (09:45.229)
You know, over that period of time, especially World Vision was such an amazing period in my life, like just incredible opportunities and incredible things that you get to see on a global scale. One of them was working with an organization called Barna who does a fair bit of research globally. And they did two generational pieces, right? One for Gen Y and one for Gen Z. And as we were doing, you know, and I mean,
Caleb Gray (10:00.374)
Right.
Caleb Gray (10:08.758)
Okay.
Noddy Sharma (10:13.837)
I don't know you, but if you've been around in kind of church world for very long, we love data. We love looking at some data. In fact, I coined the phrase that we love growing fat on data. The hard part with data is actually looking at it to say, what are you actually gonna do? What are you gonna change? And I remember 2011 being in churches and looking at the data coming out from then the age bracket of 18 to 25 year olds saying, these are the largest group leaving the church. And we're all like, wow.
Caleb Gray (10:24.535)
Right.
Caleb Gray (10:40.918)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (10:43.181)
What are we gonna do about this? It was like, how do we create almost youth groups for young adults? Because you can throw a chocolate knife for a youth group and they'll turn up, but what do we need to do? And we didn't really solve it, right? And then when we're looking at Gen Y and Gen Z, Gen Y actually came out and they were, out of the data, they were talking about the fact that they didn't wanna just know something was true, they wanted to know that it was good.
Caleb Gray (10:51.094)
Right.
Caleb Gray (10:58.774)
Mmm.
Noddy Sharma (11:11.629)
You know, and it was for me as I dug into that more and more, I felt like it was a real wake up call to say, it's not just about the truth of who Jesus is. It's, it's important to know about that truth, but actually that truth embeds itself into your life when you truly see that following him leads to goodness and life is good and that goodness can actually be found in all sorts of spaces. So, you know, these two things shouldn't be separated. They should actually be working.
Caleb Gray (11:11.735)
Rise.
Caleb Gray (11:30.839)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (11:40.237)
you know, in a way that supports one another. The truth of who Jesus is should lead to a life of goodness. And not only that, but it should lead to his kingdom showing goodness here on the earth. Even when a non -believer experiences that they should almost be smacked in the face with just how good it is. And in general, I was really calling to that, to say to the church, hey guys, don't just stand on pulpits and tell us about this, show us, show us that it's good. And...
Caleb Gray (11:43.032)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (11:55.511)
Right.
Caleb Gray (12:05.335)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (12:07.437)
And so again, it was this kind of, wow, are we doing that? Like, and how are we doing that? And we, you know, because in my experience, what we tend to do is we tend to separate out this idea of what it is at the church or who the church is, what we practice and the idea of mission. And the idea of mission that we've always had is like, hey, you're gonna feel this call from God or hear this call from God and then you're gonna take your stuff, you're gonna go overseas, you're gonna raise support, you're gonna do this stuff.
Caleb Gray (12:23.48)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (12:37.197)
But there's a dynamic shift that needs to occur. And I think that next generation has actually called this out, that mission isn't something you're called to. And this is a quote from a dear friend of mine who's spent a lot of time thinking about it. Mission isn't something you're called to, mission is something you've been created for. In other words, every single fiber of our being, when you understand who you are created in the image of God, it doesn't matter where you are, the conversation you're in, the place you're doing your vacation, it doesn't matter. The point is, is that you have been.
Caleb Gray (12:51.768)
Very good.
Caleb Gray (13:03.032)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (13:05.453)
created for a purpose and that purpose is to point to the King of Kings and that can occur anywhere. So, you know, it's this... Sorry.
Caleb Gray (13:08.472)
I love that. Yeah, that's brilliant.
Caleb Gray (13:17.018)
No, no, no. I was just going to affirm that it reminds me of the scripture in Ephesians 2 where it says, your God's workmanship created for good works, which he's prepared beforehand. Just that sense of identity, like you can't separate who you are from what you do. It's very much the missional focus or following Jesus is about, it's that...
Noddy Sharma (13:32.364)
100 percent.
Caleb Gray (13:44.666)
that following that doing going into your workplace, going home, loving your wife, loving your children, loving your friends, wherever you find yourself at the coffee shop, on a run or driving in the car, it's that taking that missional mind and that identity into your everyday.
Noddy Sharma (14:08.301)
100%. Now, if we flick from Gen Y to Gen Z, Gen Z was fascinating because when we started looking at the data that came out of that, there was a few points, and I mean, there was a lot of data, but there was a few points that really stuck out to me and started to tell a bit of a story.
And I have a vested interest here, right? Because my boy turns 11 this year, so he's Gen Alpha. And so the question for me, and he's got a beautiful little faith, right? And so my question was always around, what are we doing that's gonna allow him to live out his God -given gifts and potential to be on mission and to understand that he's been created for God's purposes?
Caleb Gray (14:28.73)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (14:43.885)
And, and I mean, we've, I am of the age where I'm really aware around the incredible legacy that has gone before us. It's allowed the life that I've lived pointing to Jesus and the opportunities that have been granted to me to do that in a miraculous way have actually all been about and not because of something that I've orchestrated or just something that's been in my lifetime, but because of the footprints of those that have gone before me, I followed. And, and so I started being really interested around.
Caleb Gray (15:10.011)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (15:13.791)
Well, who will Jesse, my little boy, who will he be following? You know, if it's not me, who are those people in Gen Z and Gen Y that he's following? And what legacy is he actually picking up? And so when you look at the data that comes out of Gen Z, there was a few things that I was acutely aware of. One, something popped up that I'd never seen before, right? Where one in four young people globally aged between 12 and 17 right now, right, believe they'll be famous. One in four.
Caleb Gray (15:22.683)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (15:43.085)
And it was like a, I had to stop and scratch my head as I looked at that. I was like, what? Because back when I was young, if you wanted to be famous, you had to be really good at something, you know, you're best at your game, you know, whatever it is. And you knew that it was, it was a tiny, tiny percentage of people that would actually make it. What shifts to actually tell people, a young person that actually one in four believe that will be. And what shifted is that you don't have to be the top one percent anymore.
Caleb Gray (15:59.227)
Hmm. Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (16:12.493)
All you need is something to go viral in a digital realm that will actually get your name out there. And so the fame picture has kind of shifted slightly and the way in which to be able to get there is actually all around, can you make someone laugh more? Can you get something to be interesting, more violent or whatever it is that will allow you to grow in a digital world? And so the huge difference between kind of when I'm growing up,
Caleb Gray (16:15.578)
Right.
Caleb Gray (16:30.522)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (16:37.709)
to watching Gen Z right now. The other big thing that kinda came out was, and especially in Australia, that the number one concern that our young people in Australia have 12 to 17 was around mental health. And when you look at some of the data that's even just been posted recently, Australia has made it into the top 10 of countries around the world with worst mental health.
Caleb Gray (16:39.642)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (17:03.642)
Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (17:03.917)
And when you look at, even outside of Gen Z, look across our global statistics, it's one in three. So it's 30 % of people in Australia experiencing and reporting emotional disconnection. And then if you look at the 12 to 17 year olds, it's one in two. So it's 50 % of them.
Caleb Gray (17:19.13)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (17:23.034)
Well, yeah.
Noddy Sharma (17:25.069)
And when we tie it in with the fact that they're more connected now globally than they've ever been, and yet they're still experiencing emotional disconnection, right, you've got to start asking yourself why.
You know, if we've just said that we've been created for God's purpose, we've been created to be able to engage with humanity in a really meaningful way to point to his goodness, to understand that his image is created in every single one of us. And yet we've got a generation now that are more connected than anyone that's ever been in our globe in a time where we've had more growth than we've ever had before. And yet they feel emotionally disconnected. There is a problem.
Caleb Gray (17:44.027)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (17:59.706)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (18:01.805)
between understanding our identity of what we're being created for and what the actual outworkings of that looks like. So.
Caleb Gray (18:07.994)
Right. So what would you say that problem is or how are you looking to address it?
Noddy Sharma (18:19.565)
Yeah, so I reckon, and again, this is my musings, right? So I'm currently in this process of doing my own kind of asking questions around how this works. But I reckon that there's a few things here. First of all, I would say culture has changed significantly.
Right. So when I was growing up, we understood our identity was found within mostly our family units in our community. So I call it a vertical relationship. So in other words, you knew who you were by your family, your siblings, your parents, your uncles, your aunties, your community around you, your church, and then even your pastor. And eventually the idea is vertical nature leads you to understanding that there is a God over all of it. And you find yourself within this vertical nature and it has some clear boundaries, which, which at times can be like feel,
Caleb Gray (18:53.466)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (19:07.455)
like it's restricting, but it's actually really safe because you're surrounded with people who know you, love you, see you and want the best for you. What we've kind of seen now is that especially with the digital realm that's now in, that that vertical relationship is toppled. So now I would say it's a horizontal space.
So instead of a young person today finding their identity in their family of origin and their community that they're in, because it's now digital and global and it's really broad, what they've got is they've got their peers who don't necessarily know them, who are willing to cancel them, who they don't really necessarily have their best interests at heart. They'll exploit them wherever they can and they're biting to all be seen, known, heard and loved. And so it's not as safe as it once was. Yes, you might be able to get cut through.
Caleb Gray (19:48.892)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (19:53.837)
but it's not actually gonna help you because it's not in this structure that allows you to engage cross -culturally and cross -generationally in a meaningful way with people who have walked the journey with Jesus for a long period of time to be able to speak into it. In church we'd call that discipleship, right? And so it's fascinating to watch this. Now, we're not gonna be able to rebuild it for the next generation, but...
Caleb Gray (20:09.724)
Yeah. Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (20:22.509)
What I would love to see is that we take some of these hallmarks that help, you know, every individual find themselves, be seen, known, heard and loved, understand who Jesus is, what they've been created for, to find those principles put back in place in a way that a young person can actually build it for themselves. And that requires us not taking control, us actually releasing the reins, empowering them to do it and walking alongside them to actually create safe environments for them to do this. So.
It's a fascinating kind of way to think through it in terms of our cultural, you know, temperature of where Australia is right now. You go back three generations in back when the vertical kind of made sense.
People would actually it was it was safe. It was producing better fruit We were we were known for punching above our weight in terms of you know our social service and and I mean You know doing stuff around the world responding to global issues helping mates and neighbors. We understood that community in our neighbors a lot more
Caleb Gray (21:02.783)
right.
Caleb Gray (21:20.192)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (21:21.549)
Whereas you look at it now and yes, we actually be able to, we are more connected and more able to actually reach into certain things, but there is a disconnect from the head and the heart. It doesn't happen because I would say, and this is my second point, that what we've seen is this shift to a more me -centric culture. So, you know, and if we hold that up against the Bible.
Caleb Gray (21:41.887)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (21:45.261)
Jesus actually tells us that we find ourselves when we die to ourselves. When we realize that that's not all about us. When we actually put to death our selfish pride and ambition and instead we lay down our life for the benefit of others. We lay down our life to Jesus and say, it's your way, it's your will, you are the master. That's when we truly find ourselves. So I would say we've progressively watched this, what I call the me switch.
Caleb Gray (21:49.567)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (22:02.752)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (22:10.861)
getting flipped on. And the beautiful thing about church and discipleship and understanding the community and the family of origin that you are in was that what that afforded you in a really simple way was for your me switch to be switched off. In other words, you are constantly reminded that life isn't about you. You're not the center of the universe. Nothing or not everything revolves around you. And we've seen a shift across the way in which we're parenting, the way in which we learn culture, where actually your truth, your world,
Caleb Gray (22:34.752)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (22:39.277)
your feelings, your desires, that trumps everything else. And if it's felt for you, it is important. And we watch this, and it's probably happened quite softly over a long period of time, but the underlying message is, no, you are the most important person in the world. And so there's nothing there to actually help a young person turn their me switch off.
Caleb Gray (22:43.393)
Right.
Caleb Gray (23:01.313)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (23:01.645)
And so what does that do that doesn't actually help them find their identity that leads to health that actually bears really good fruit. Instead, what it does is I think it's actually leading to the mental health issues that we're really seeing because when you can't step out of your own world and realize and have find empathy, find a desire to actually do good in the world, understand your place of how you can actually get on board with something else that's going on that's bigger than you.
Caleb Gray (23:29.857)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (23:30.093)
to broaden your horizon and vision and recognise that through relationship, that's how you grow your life. It's not in a digital realm. All these things mean that if you're not doing it, you're creating a world that is more and more just literally with you at the centre. And then you see your flaws, you see your brokenness, you see all the shame, you see all the stuff that we know crowds our life and that becomes the vision of yourself. And I don't think it's what we intended for a young person.
Caleb Gray (23:57.091)
Yeah.
No, not at all. And I think, yeah, I think you're definitely on the money in terms of there's been a huge cultural shift from that sense of finding identity in a place of community and with others around to this, which Charles Taylor, who's a Canadian philosopher, calls like radical individualism. So it's that, that, that me centric focus of
Noddy Sharma (24:23.021)
Mm -hmm.
Caleb Gray (24:26.948)
I have my truth, I like my truth is even though it's subjective, it should be objectively like adhered to by everyone. So then you get into this like awkward situation, which I think we see unfolding now where you have a bunch of opinions, but no one knows how to actually have conversation firstly, have like that open dialogue, but then offense creeps in and people feel attacked. They feel
shame, they feel all these things and because those feelings are their truth, their world starts breaking down. And yeah, I totally hear what you're saying. I recently read a book by, it's making its way around, it's called Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and he talks more into the fact of how
devices like these digital technology, these companies who are creating these devices, how essentially their main goal is to make a profit. And they're doing that at the expense of its users. So he unpacks like you're saying that Gen Alpha, Gen Z, because they're the generation who are being impacted mostly by digital advancements in.
screens and social media and we see it from 2007 when the iPhone was introduced and then this massive spike in mental health issues from 2010 onwards when you get things like the like button, the share, the endless scrolls, so all these different things and he ties it in saying in terms of how a young person
Noddy Sharma (26:08.557)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (26:17.828)
when they're growing and developing, they're looking for someone to look up to, to emulate. So there's this thing of prestige. They'll try and attach their identity to someone of prestige. And then they're also looking, like around them, community, their peers, to be affirmed by that. So what social media then does is it puts, like you were saying earlier, like,
Noddy Sharma (26:24.461)
Hmm.
Caleb Gray (26:45.061)
Insta Famous or someone who's just gone viral puts them in this prestige sort of position on this platform. So now you're looking up to this person who probably doesn't have much character. You're looking to them as an example as I need to be like this person to be loved, accepted and valued. And if you can't find that then you're looking to your peers. But then what ends up happening because you're not in a face -to -face
relationship it's all online your peers are just showing highlight reels of of their life so you you sort of come under this heavy condemnation of man I have to have the perfect life I have to have the perfect relationship with my boyfriend girlfriend I have to have X wines that you you name it and be able to post that so that I can get like so that I can feel valued and and
have this sense of identity. But the crazy thing is, is it's all based on the social platforms are all based on that me centric principle is like, you put yourself out there, so you'll then get affirmed or loved, which is just, it's just a completely destructive way to, yeah, add humanity to people and a completely destructive way to try and,
see our young people flourishing in that environment. So I know you've done a lot of thinking in this space and this is sort of some way you're wanting to enter into. How do you see yourself entering into that space and doing something about it?
Noddy Sharma (28:33.197)
Good question and I'm still trying to work it out. I mean, look, one of the things that I have been doing is I have been speaking at a fair few schools as well and talking through some of this stuff with young people because you're quite right. Exactly what you've just named there and articulated really well is part of the biggest problem. I mean, if you look at some of those stats and how it aligns, if you take out the 12 to 17 year olds, the Gen Z right now.
They say that basically in Australia, we spend 30 % of our waking time on digital devices, 30%. If you go to 12 to 17s, it's more like 70 % of their waking hours is spent on a digital device.
Caleb Gray (29:06.181)
Crazy.
Noddy Sharma (29:13.453)
And I would say that if we understand we've been created for more, we've been created to have large lives, lives that impact and actually bump into one another and actually speak life into one another's lives and sharpen each other and help each other actually get better and bigger, that only happens not through just how good we are, but it actually happens in understanding what the grace effect is when we see each other's flaws. And so what a screen does is a screen actually reduces the size of your life.
to only be seen through a 16 by nine filter. Whereas true relationship in an ongoing long period of time increases the size of your life because you understand what it is to have grace. You understand what it is to love regardless. You understand what it is to forgive and have empathy and to help one another in their time of need and embrace person in pain. Not only show the best snippets of a real that actually paints a picture of a life that just isn't true. And.
Caleb Gray (30:08.935)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (30:10.413)
And so the other part to this is that that's kind of where people are stuck in and especially that next generation. But the other part of it is helping them realize that this is actually an addiction. You talk about people that are literally, the algorithms are discipling people because it is looking for how do I keep them on board? So the stats are saying and the research says for these companies that...
Caleb Gray (30:17.158)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (30:22.407)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (30:38.445)
Kids these days, they don't have a long attention span. It's why videos are three minutes. They're not reading large bits of text. The education sector is actually needing to change the way in which they're engaging because of the fact that young people these days are showing very different ways of learning and engaging. And the reason is because it's been driven by a digital realm.
Caleb Gray (30:43.911)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (30:53.927)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (30:57.896)
Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (30:58.157)
So, you know, I mean, and you see snippets all the time and you start looking for it. Newspaper two days ago was this whole notion, this push to say, we don't, you know, schools are saying we don't want people or young people to bring their phones to school or into class, but they can have it in their bag. But what they're noticing at recess and lunch is that all the kids are rushing out to their bags, grabbing their digital devices out to see what they've missed. They're not outside, they're not playing, they're not talking to one another. They're literally only doing it through a digital device. And what's...
Caleb Gray (31:24.968)
it causes almost more of an issue. It's like you probably have to make schools a complete no phone zone.
Noddy Sharma (31:28.781)
cause of the glitch.
Noddy Sharma (31:33.069)
No phone zone, right? And the reason they're playing with this is because what they're noticing is that young people's mental health is literally affected by feeling like they've spent too long away from it. They've missed out on something or someone's actually hammering them online or, you know, and it's this addiction that they cannot, you know, release themselves from. And so...
Caleb Gray (31:44.487)
Wow.
Noddy Sharma (31:54.349)
I think part of the answer is how do you build something in there that allows them to actually realize that you can be away from this thing and it's okay, that life's okay, it's okay, continue on. It's not the real thing, that's not the real game. Now, I know I'm sounding old and funny like, my goodness, the technology is the worst. No, I don't think that at all. I think technology is amazing. But I think that it should be built to help us with our purpose and our ultimate goal.
Caleb Gray (32:12.945)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (32:21.101)
of understanding who we are, that we've been created for a purpose and that that purpose that gets played out into the earth so that people in pain can actually find hope, peace, joy, justice, love, you know, all the stuff that we know that Jesus actually talks about.
In other words, the other way to think about it is that God's kingdom can come here on earth. That's what we're trying to really embed that our culture needs to be a kingdom culture that has Jesus at the center of it, that brings restoration, love, grace, forgiveness. That's the way of life that actually leads to a mental health state, an emotional state, a spiritual state, a physical state that is our best version of ourselves. And so the way in which...
Caleb Gray (32:40.905)
Bye.
Caleb Gray (32:59.336)
Mm -mm, very good.
Noddy Sharma (33:03.309)
we as a society needs to do this is because yes, we need to empower young people to be able to take control of this themselves. But we also need to set it up in a way where.
We are purposefully parenting differently. We're purposefully educating differently. We're purposefully pastoring differently. We're purposefully actually putting our attention onto that next generation so that they know that they're seen by us, that we can show that there is another way, that we can help them with the addiction of being on something. And I mean, I know I've said addiction a lot, but it's true. Like, I mean, some studies talk about the fact that this is, you know, the digital device, you know, engagement is setting off endorphins in our brain that is not dissimilar to being on a hardcore.
or drug. And I mean, if you're, if you're a parent with a kid and you watch them on a screen and you experience them after you take that screen away from it, it is literally like they're going into detox. It's the whole mood, everything changes. And yet it's not enough on an alarm bell for us to actually think through what are we doing here? Like we, we need to do something.
Caleb Gray (33:42.601)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (33:51.435)
Yeah, well.
Caleb Gray (34:01.291)
Why do you think that is? That's a great point because I think so many people, I want to say parents, I feel parents are up close and personal with screens and that addictive behavior. So they're seeing it, but then also people experience it within themselves. I'm part of the millennial generation, so we still have that pull towards the phone. And...
It's like you do feel like there's this addictive nature about it. And I think like the more and more time goes on, the more studies are coming out that how it's like, like in terms of the endless scroll and things like that. And the algorithms are likened to slot machines where they're designed to just give you little bits of dopamine hits every now and then so that it keeps you hooked. It keeps you on,
It's not like this one, like climbing a mountain and then you feel the sense of you get that, that dopamine hit and you feel the sense of reward and accomplishment. but it's this thing that keeps you coming back for, for little bits. And, those, those like micro interactions all add up to like, well, I forgot the stat you mentioned how 70 % of the time spent on, on the phone in a, in a waking day.
Why do you think there's not been as much attention from people on this? Like it's a serious issue, right? This addiction, addictive nature of technology that we play with every day.
Noddy Sharma (35:47.309)
Yeah, I think part of it, because I've thought about this a fair bit too, and again, it's just my musings, let's be clear, I don't have any hard data to make this up, right? But I think part of it is around, it's hard work, it's hard work doing life, right? And when you have, you know, kids, I think it's easy to be able to say, or think to yourself, man, I just need a break. And so the easiest way to do that, to keep them out of mischief is to...
Chuck them a digital device and say here. And whether it's for 30 minutes, an hour, two hours, whatever, or whether you lose track of time and all of a sudden four hours have gone by. The intention is, I just need to be able to look after myself. Or I need a break or I'm busy or I'm cooking dinner or whatever it is. And again, I know I sound so fuddy -duddy, but that...
That moment in time, like, I mean, if you think back to your childhood, some of your best memories of family life is your dad doing something with you or your mom doing something with you or, you know, doing something as a family or playing games in a car as you're going or whatever it is, whatever your family would try and kind of do.
Those are the moments that stick in your head. It's not a moment of, man, that was so good my childhood because I've just given a screen. That's not what we're gonna be looking back on and saying. But I think there is this thing in life that is just so busy right now. And there's so much stuff going on, biting for our attention that we've created this moment of what's the fastest way to be able to cut ourselves some time whilst I break.
Caleb Gray (37:03.052)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (37:09.773)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (37:30.125)
And I just don't think that's been a healthy and it's as simple as we've gotten into the habit of doing it. It's what's readily acceptable. It's, you know, it's not, it's not uncommon to walk into a cafe and see people they're catching up. And when they want to have a meaningful conversation with someone, their kids are sitting there and they're giving them the phone. Right.
Caleb Gray (37:36.301)
Right.
Caleb Gray (37:49.229)
Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (37:50.829)
And again, totally get it, totally get it. You're trying to have a proper conversation and your kid's sitting there and he's making a mess or making a noise or doing something or running around like a crazy person. Everyone else is looking at you and judging you. So you just want to try and get him quiet and the easiest way is to give him this thing. But.
The downside of that is that it keeps the momentum of the endorphins and the dopamine hit actually occurring. It's having a poor impact on them. It's not teaching them good habits. It's not helping them enter into conversations. It's not helping them understand how you actually enter into a conversation with someone who had something, a meaningful exchange. Instead, it's just keeping them quiet and doping them up and getting them into a pattern very early that is leading to really poor mental health. I mean, I...
Caleb Gray (38:35.471)
Yeah, but.
Noddy Sharma (38:36.525)
I read an article literally two days ago, it was so sad, you know, a regional country town in Victoria, 17 year old took their life because their whole world was on digital and someone scammed them. You know, they managed to actually get a, you know, a photo of them that was, you know, a naked photo of them as a response, pretending to be someone that they weren't and all of a sudden.
Caleb Gray (38:58.383)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (39:00.013)
you know, trying to expose them. And this person just felt like they had no way out. The 17 year old takes their life. And I look at that, I'm just like, that is, it's shocking. But can you imagine 20, 10, 15 years ago, 15 years ago, that never would have happened. It was not something that we were kind of looking at, right? Because it wasn't there, that wasn't our world. It was seen as well. That's a big deal. Who cares? That's a nothing world. That's not my life. Whereas it's now so perfect.
Caleb Gray (39:06.415)
Shocking.
Caleb Gray (39:15.512)
Yeah.
Mm.
Caleb Gray (39:25.519)
Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (39:28.269)
It's so ingrained in who we are now that actually it just opens up this really sad moment in our history that allows people to actually just do harm. So again, I just think that the part of it too is if we come back to Deuteronomy, right? And we think about even the guide of what it looks like in...
Caleb Gray (39:31.791)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (39:42.735)
Yeah, that's.
Noddy Sharma (39:53.773)
you know, as followers of Jesus in community, in family, to think about this and care for one another. You know, talks around the fact that from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to bed, we should be talking about the ways of God. We should be pointing to his goodness. We should be reminding the next generation, our kids, exactly what he's done, how he's turned up in those moments of difficulty, you know, how he's delivered us from stuff. And the whole purpose of that is so that we don't forget who he is and we keep expecting that he's going to keep doing it. And...
You know, so that is a practice that I think actually looks like a family life or community life that has a really different rhythm to it, to trying to actually just find enough space in our time by giving our kids, our young people a digital device to help them be quiet for enough time for us to be able to feel like we get a break. And I just think we need to reset the dials and start again.
Caleb Gray (40:41.202)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (40:45.939)
Yeah, absolutely right. I think there's that need for that need for intentionality, but I'm hearing at the same time, obviously, there's a lot of empathy that goes out into those those situations with parents and their kids. I've I've got a two year old and we we've sort of made as much as we can a hard stance at this stage to to not involve screens in in her.
her life, but it is so tempting when you're making a hour and a half trip down south to visit family or something like that and the wheels are coming off the bus and there's Cheerios flying all around the car and it's like, like, Lord, just give me the strength to carry on. So I get that empathy side, but there is that intentionality of like, okay, well, what is this decision that I'm making now? How's it gonna play?
Noddy Sharma (41:24.173)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (41:43.539)
play forward. And that I think it's important what you mentioned, it's that habitual when it becomes that rhythm or that thing that you just, you just lean to, instead of leaning to something good and, and healthy, which may be hard in the time is really important. And another
in terms of thought that I had as you were speaking is that question of like, who are we being discipled by? So I think whoever we like, we're all being shaped and formed by something. It's not a question of what like, what should we be shaped and formed or what should we be discipled by? But it's more of a question of like, what are we being discipled by? And if Jesus isn't that center,
then we without even realizing that's where I empathize as well is without even realizing then our culture shapes us, the world around us shapes us and like we said at the start of this conversation the culture has turned to very me -centric and it's this narrative that leads away from goodness, away from what Jesus has to offer that life. So how
Noddy Sharma (42:53.773)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (43:05.715)
Yeah, how have you gone out to address, address that question of like, who are we being discipled by? It's that identity question again, it's like, how have you gone out to address and want to bring out a different way, a better way to shape and form Gen Z's and Gen Alphas?
Noddy Sharma (43:30.317)
Yeah, so what I've just started is this thing called able movement. And look, it's in its infancy, right? So I'm still working on websites, I'm still working on all these things. But the thought is this, Caleb, is that whatever movement's on about is it's wanting to be able to produce a different culture or create a different culture and let it be led almost back to biblical times, right? When the early church first came out, we look at Acts.
what were they doing? They were embracing people in their pain. And it says that God actually added to their number every single day. In other words, they got into the habits of meeting in homes, they shared their possessions, they shared belongings, and they did really cool stuff together and recognized that the circumstance didn't define them. They could actually create a different culture within that, right? One that actually existed on hope and restoration and forgiveness and love. And it wasn't about the pervading culture. I mean, recognizing that their pervading culture at that time was one of oppression, was incredible.
hierarchical that they were seen as as you know nothing and all of a sudden we've got Jesus totally changing this thing on its head. Now
You fast forward to today and if we think about, again, what are some of the pivots, the pivotal moments in that, it's understanding that the habitual things that we need to start doing needs to echo some of these things. So in other words, how do you continue to eat meals together? Like even in a small way, if a family decides, hey, mealtime, there's no technology, we're actually gonna have a conversation, we're gonna ask each other how we're doing, we're gonna share around this moment in time. That could be absolutely transformational in a household, right? Again, not a new idea, something that the,
Caleb Gray (45:07.282)
Yeah.
Noddy Sharma (45:07.855)
that has been practiced since the beginning of time. And, but.
I mean, I reckon if you did a snapshot of how many people would actually just eat their dinner alone or in front of the TV or, you know, family time still got their phones and they're scrolling through stuff and laughing and you know, I mean, that I'm sure it's not intentional around, no, we're gonna have a conversation. We're gonna ask each other how we're actually doing here. And so I think something as simple as that could really change it. Anyway, what I'm thinking about with Able is a few things going on. One, I wanna...
I wanna create some conversations that can trial some things that are different. So, you know, what does it look like to define your life differently? You mentioned that the hard stop on screens, Jesse's 11 now, same thing. From Monday to Friday, there's no screens with technology whatsoever for him. And I mean, that's been difficult. At times we've not done it, at times we've done it really well. But, you know, looking at it.
over the last 11 years, I think to myself, he's been set up better for it, you know, or because of it, because he interacts better with people, he'll ask good questions, he'll engage differently. Yes, there's been times where there's conversation I feel left out because everyone else at school is talking about X, Y and Z and I don't get to do that. And we explain, hey, it's okay, you know, we're gonna do something different here, or we're gonna do a different activity or it's, now, I know it sounds extreme, but it's almost like a test.
Caleb Gray (46:27.731)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (46:33.535)
to see what it can produce. And not that he's perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but some of the pitfalls that we notice in some of the other young people around him...
Caleb Gray (46:35.796)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (46:43.053)
It's different, the things aren't the same. And I would argue that in Able Movement, what we wanna do is we wanna be able to help families do this. We wanna help parents understand some of these biblical principles that they can try that's different, that will produce some different results in their kids. There will be some habitual changes that they can make that may actually help support them. Connect them back into community with other parents to support them and be in that space with them. Provide them with the resources to do that.
Caleb Gray (46:44.019)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (47:08.18)
Very good.
Noddy Sharma (47:10.253)
Same thing with pastors and churches, you know, like, I mean, I love the church and think it's got the answer to the world. And...
But I think that at times as the church, we've missed some of this stuff. We've kept staring inside the four walls instead of recognising that there's a big bad word out there that desperately needs us to remove our walls. Stop trying to protect our walls and start trying to get out there to help people recognise that Jesus is accessible for everyone and has something to say to everyone. And I think, you know, pastors, the biggest thing that we struggle with is kind of the pressures of how do we make sure people are turning up? You know, how do we make sure there's enough money in the...
Caleb Gray (47:28.532)
Very good.
Noddy Sharma (47:46.495)
the plate and we make sure that we're doing the things we've set out to do that's been God given. And yet, so what that does is that the temptation of wanting to control everything is right there. So what if you took the mantle to say control is an illusion and instead you actually embrace the mystery of God to say what are you going to do in this next generation and hand over the reins a bit more to say lead. I wonder if all of a sudden we'd see them do something really differently. And you know, and then for young people,
Caleb Gray (47:47.221)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (47:55.924)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (48:14.797)
engaging with them in a way to say, you guys have the power to be able to do something differently here. It's not around hearing from me or anyone else to say, hey, follow me, I'm gonna actually help you with this, I'm gonna stand on a platform and preach to you. But what if you were able to actually lead a peer to peer led movement that was gathering people simply to do something different. So instead of being online constantly, you're gathering them in your spaces that you naturally are, whether it's your schools, your churches, your community sporting clubs, wherever you may be.
gathering like -minded people, your peers to say, let's stop and pray. Let's wait on God and see what he has to say. Let's remind each other of who we are in him. And then let's pick something that is on our hearts and do something about it. You know, I have this funny inkling that if we can do that and almost keep it underground and secret and just let the thing kind of bubble away, that we would look back in five, 10 years time and go, what happened? Like what, because I guarantee,
Caleb Gray (49:08.758)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (49:12.429)
it'll impact culture. And the reason I say that is because we've got 2000 plus years of history watching how Jesus impacted culture with his people that were all over the map, all over the shop, imperfect in every way, but honed in on the kingdom of God principle of they can bring goodness here on earth. And they did it by dividing themselves to the word, to the breaking of bread, meeting in each other's homes and sharing each other's pain. And if we can start to create cultures back like that, it will have an impact.
Caleb Gray (49:36.471)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (49:40.728)
Awesome. So just on that, what have you noticed the particular gaps in say the church or in youth ministries particularly to address these needs and issues that we've chatted about and that you've spoken about that Gen Z's, Gen Alphas are facing on an increasingly detrimental level.
Noddy Sharma (50:12.269)
Yeah, look, the church.
we as the church, we don't have an easy job ahead of us. Let's be clear. Like it's hard work. You know, it used to be that, and I mean, if we think historically, Australia was set up as a Christian nation historically. That's what we were. So churches on every corner, you know, understanding that that's what we're being created in, right? And we live in this beautiful kind of space right now that has this very Christian heritage of our education system, our government systems, our hospitals, you know, all of that comes from
this very biblical idea of what it looks like to engage with humanity. Now, so the old models that we had of church, of turning up, doing the thing, calling people to come and then just turning up and us being able to speak to it, that...
that's no longer working. And I mean, I think the global pandemic, it smashed us, you know, in terms of people turning up and people actually feeling like they were part of a community. Now, I would also throw in there that, you know, while it would be easy to point and say, the church disappeared or we lost a whole of the people from community, I would argue that...
Jesus didn't stop working. I think it would be really interesting to do a cross -cultural setting and say, hey, all the people that belonged in a church over the period of COVID, what did you do in terms of connecting with your neighbors and still having incredible God conversations that you can point to? I'm sure there'd be way more than we realize. So I still believe the church is alive and well during that period of time. It's just that the gathering point, the way in which we measured it had shifted dramatically and has still shifted.
Caleb Gray (51:30.007)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (51:43.917)
So I think what we're now seeing is we're seeing this moment where we need to start to think through differently of what we're doing. The old models of just plant in a vertical nature that actually has this hierarchical moment that tries to get young people to see God at the top of it, that's gone. So what are we doing now to try and feel like we're planting seeds in a horizontal spectrum that allows a young person to lead themselves and be there to create safety for them? It's back to what I said earlier. So I think part of the models and the issues that we have
of just gathering on a Friday night or gathering on a Sunday and saying, this is where you come and this is where you belong and we're gonna have some fun and laughter, et cetera. That as it's on the shopfront, I think can work still, but it's a difficult one because it's a very difficult place to really get meaningful and see what I would call God movements taking off and doing something. And the reason I'm convicted by that is because if you look back through history, every amazing movement that's ever occurred has usually started with a young person.
Caleb Gray (52:24.344)
Mm.
Noddy Sharma (52:43.021)
that before they figured out they can't do it, they do it. And it's because they have this unholy discontent with what they're seeing coming down the line. Now, are we creating that space for that to occur? And my sense is, no, we're not. We're creating gatherings that again, are a moment in time for us to feel like we can gather and feel like we're checking some boxes. But to really think through what does it look like in ministry, that's...
Caleb Gray (52:50.679)
Brilliant.
Noddy Sharma (53:12.333)
seven days a week, not just an hour on a Friday night or an hour on a Sunday.
How are we leaning into that space? And that means that it's not just the pastor's role, the youth leaders role. It's actually all of our roles. It's it's anyone that follows Jesus that understands that part of his church and a part of his bride needs to take that ministry seriously to say, how are we investing in this next generation in a way that is going to one help them be the best version of themselves they can be so that they can be on mission and be understand that they've been created for it, not called to it.
and will have the longevity of a church that keeps pointing to the bride of Christ in a way that brings goodness in this world because his kingdom can't help but be here on earth when his gatherers are actually serious about this. So it's almost a recalling to say the church, we need to remember that our primary purpose here is pointing to God and our primary purpose is about equipping the saints for their work in ministry, which is.
Ministry that isn't shiny and amazing and has big platforms, but ministry that is every single day. It is conversation by conversation, moment by moment back to that Deuteronomy moment of saying, can you imagine if you were leading a church where every family member in that place took it seriously that from the moment the sun came up to the moment it went down, they're talking about the goodness of God and reminding each other the fact that he's here.
Caleb Gray (54:30.903)
brilliant. Yeah, I'm sure that would significantly transform and shape the culture that we're a part of and how beautiful would that look as well?
Noddy Sharma (54:45.453)
I believe it would be absolutely incredible.
Caleb Gray (54:47.255)
So it sounds like you've definitely got your work cut out ahead of you, Nadi. And yeah, if people wanting to find out more about you or get in contact with you, maybe someone listening feels like, hey, they're working on a project or they feel like they have something to contribute or might just be able to, yeah.
do something about it with you or whatever it may be, what's the best way for that to occur?
Noddy Sharma (55:21.741)
Mate, if someone's listening and they feel like they wanna help me with this, I will take all the help I can get. Right now, it's me. So feel free, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at nottyatabelmovement .org. That's ABLE, as in A -B -E -L. Which, by the way, we haven't touched on, but my whole thing is it came from Cane and Able. And...
Caleb Gray (55:26.519)
brilliant.
Caleb Gray (55:44.535)
Right, yeah, well, just give us an overview to where the name did come from.
Noddy Sharma (55:52.717)
All right, so I'm sitting there and I'm looking at it. I need to come up with this name for this thing. I'm flicking through the Bible and pretty much the first thing that popped off the page was, you know, Cain and Abel. And of course, we know this story, right? Cain and Abel are brothers. Abel brings his offering to God. It's pleasing. Cain brings his and it's less than. And, you know, so Cain, out of comparison and realizing that it's not as good, thinks to himself, I just need to kill Abel and then I can be pleasing with God.
Now, first of all, I find that really fascinating because he had two choices. Cain could have gone, all right, I really need to fix something about this. So how do I get better? But instead of saying that, he said, no, that's making me look bad. How do I kill it? And I would say, you know, we're in a generation and a cultural time where we've experienced that. We've seen the amazing work of what the church of what, you know,
Caleb Gray (56:38.295)
Right.
Noddy Sharma (56:51.405)
followers of Jesus have done globally. And we've seen a world that says, we need to get better. How do we get more engaged in that? And they said, they've gone, how do we kill that? How do we actually take it out of our classrooms? How do we no longer let it be here? How can we actually actually have this as opt in, you know? And, and so we've watched this whole thing almost kind of come under a bit of persecution. And the word able, the name able in Hebrew actually literally means vapor or breath of God. And,
Well, we may see a generation right now who have almost tried to kill off this idea that God's in existence, that he has truth, that there is an absolute truth, that Jesus has something to say to them. I would say that there are a group of young people who I believe that they are still able. In other words, they are the vapor and the breath of God and they can do something that's incredible. And so,
Caleb Gray (57:41.017)
Awesome.
Noddy Sharma (57:45.357)
I kind of feel like our role in this right now is if we can identify where the breath and the vapor of God exists, then how do we actually empower it and release it to do something great in our world? So if people want to join me in it, I'd love to hear from them, email me. The website will be up shortly. And you know, when that's up, we can jump back on and have a look and people can contact me through that as well. But yeah, I'd love to hear people's thoughts and what they're doing. If they're keen to actually get engaged, it would be awesome.
Caleb Gray (57:55.193)
brilliant.
Caleb Gray (58:13.657)
Awesome. Sounds good. I'll throw up your email if you're fine with it in the description as well so people can find it easier as well if they need a shout out to you. Great. Well, thanks so much for your time and your conversation. And yeah, it sounds really, I suppose the task ahead isn't an easy one by any means, but it's a necessary one. So thanks for sharing a bit about that. And
Noddy Sharma (58:21.421)
I do it.
Noddy Sharma (58:26.157)
Thanks, mate.
Caleb Gray (58:42.841)
your heart and your passion for seeing the breath and the life of Jesus in the generations to come to continue to shape our culture and the lives around us. I think it's so needed and yeah, it's beautiful and I've really enjoyed this convo, Noddy. So thanks again. Chat soon.
Noddy Sharma (59:03.373)
Caleb. Thank you, mate.
