Alan Noble (PhD)
Key Takeaways
Cultural Christianity can be a superficial adherence to Christian traditions without a genuine belief in the divinity of Christ or a personal relationship with Him.
The digital age and constant distractions can hinder our ability to be introspective and reflect on our lives and relationship with God.
The Sabbath is a powerful practice that disrupts the culture of busyness and efficiency, allowing us to rest in God's provision and enjoy His presence.
Following Jesus means taking up our cross daily, embracing hardship and suffering, and relying on God's grace and power to transform us. Mental health challenges are prevalent among
Episode Transcript
Caleb Gray (00:01.081)
Alright, well, I'm joined here with Dr. Alan Noble. How are you going?
Alan (00:06.682)
Good, I'm doing well, thank you.
Caleb Gray (00:10.041)
Yeah, well, firstly, thanks for having this conversation. I'm looking forward to diving into a bit of meat with it. I know you've done quite a bit of thinking around culture, around Christianity and how the two engage and interact. And then also your recent book as well that dives into topics of despair, anxiety, depression, all these.
sort of real issues of humanity. But before we dive into those, what's something that people may find surprising about yourself?
Alan (00:51.291)
Yeah, okay, that's a fun question. So when I was in my 20s, I performed in a hip hop group, produced and rapped and recorded. Not a very good, not a known one, just basically out of my garage, my parents' garage that is, but that was a lot of fun.
Caleb Gray (01:17.209)
That's awesome. Yeah, I never would have guessed that. So is there any recordings still out there?
Alan (01:22.555)
There you go.
There is and if people are good enough sleuths they can find it, but I'll leave it at that
Caleb Gray (01:32.826)
No worries, leave it up to the investigators and detectives out there to find it. Awesome. Yeah, well, you're obviously an associate professor at the Oklahoma Baptist University. You're an author, you're an editor and co -founder of Christ and pop culture. How did you get to where you are and what
Alan (01:37.274)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (02:02.169)
was that journey like for you?
Alan (02:06.075)
So when I was finishing up my master's degree, I had this choice to make. I knew that sort of my calling was to help the church understand how to participate in culture more faithfully. So I knew that was what I needed to do. But the problem was that that could look like a million different career paths. And so I went through a period of discernment and talked to my pastor and my wife and prayed. And I thought,
Either I could go into ministry and work at a local church and help local musicians and artists to hone their crafts for the glory of God, or I could get a PhD in English, which is what my master's was in, and then teach at a university and help influence young people to understand how to participate in culture more faithfully there. So my pastor said to me, well, what you should do is you should try ministry. Why don't you work in a...
our junior high ministry and see what that's like, see if it's a good fit for you. In retrospect, clearly God was working through that because if you know anything about working with junior highers, they're the hardest group to work with. And at the time, at the time I was a high school substitute teacher and I got along really well with high schoolers. And so I walked into this thinking with some swagger, thinking like, I'm going to knock it out of the park. These kids are going to love me. I'm going to connect.
Caleb Gray (03:17.242)
Right.
Alan (03:31.13)
I'm gonna vibe, it's gonna be great. And they just wanted nothing to do with me. They thought I was just a nobody. And there was just no connection, no ability. Yeah, and so I was like, all right, I guess I'm getting a PhD in English. And so I did that, and at the time I was working with Richard Clark, co -founding Christ in Pop Culture, and we built this web magazine up from scratch. At the time there weren't very many publications that were doing that.
Caleb Gray (03:39.417)
Unreal.
Alan (04:00.667)
that were engaging Christianity from a cultural lens. Not many that were doing it well. There were some fundamentalists and there were some who were just embracing culture, but there weren't ones that were very discerning. And so we did that. And that brought me opportunities to write for other publications like Christianity Today, The Gospel Coalition, The Atlantic. And that really opened things up for me. And once I started publishing there,
Caleb Gray (04:09.017)
Right.
Alan (04:30.299)
I got book opportunities and then speaking opportunities and that's where I'm at right now.
Caleb Gray (04:38.266)
Awesome. Yeah, so quite, yeah, quite the kaleidoscope of things that have transpired over the years. Sounds like an exciting journey that you've been on.
Alan (04:49.338)
Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. I could not have predicted the way it would go, you know, but looking back, I can see God's hand moving me through the steps and that's a great comfort.
Caleb Gray (05:03.835)
Well, the podcast focuses on having gospel -centered conversations with people who love Jesus. And I take it you're obviously a person who loves Jesus, so what would you say following Jesus means to you and has meant to you over the years and currently?
Alan (05:25.433)
So, I think for me, following Jesus means taking up my cross daily, dealing with hardship, suffering, mental affliction, difficulties, and keeping my faith through those things so that I can be in part so that I can glorify God. And what that looks like is practically...
Being a witness to other people being able to Minister to other people who are going through a difficult time because I've I've been through difficult times myself and so I'm able to to Speak into their suffering and walk with them and encourage them through that. So Yeah, it looks like a lot of picking up carrying my cross dying to myself daily. I'm dying to my sins Being tempted and and choosing to
not given to those sins. I like to say that either we're going to push a boulder up a hill for eternity without God, or we're going to carry the cross. But there's going to be some burden that we're carrying either way. The difference is that carrying the cross is done with the power of the Holy Spirit, whereas trying to push a boulder up a hill for eternity is all on your own shoulders.
Caleb Gray (06:52.029)
Right, yeah, that's quite a profound view to have, particularly in a culture which idealizes or sort of despises pain and suffering, right? We want a pain -free life, we sort of avoid it at all costs, where you're saying it's acknowledging that, it's about embracing that. So what have you noticed?
What is like cultural Christianity and how does it differ to, I suppose, what the gospel says if there's any difference?
Alan (07:31.638)
So cultural Christianity, I would define it as the residual effects of, in the West in particular, of a strong Christian tradition. And so it looks like people who go to church, but maybe they don't believe in the divinity of Christ, or they don't believe in the miracles. They think they're nice stories, or they go because they want their kids to get taught good morals.
as people who don't go to church but consider themselves evangelical for voting purposes, for surveys and things like that, because being evangelical identifies them with a certain conservative viewpoint that they more strongly identify with. It also looks like, I think a lot of people who have deeply dived into a culture of
culture of Christianity without the heart of Christianity. And what I mean by that is, in many ways, Christians have built their own subculture, especially evangelicals have built their own subculture with their own artists, their own, you know, celebrities, their own language, their own ethics, all these sorts of things. And you can be a part of that culture and identify with it.
Caleb Gray (08:52.19)
Right.
Alan (08:59.765)
And treat it what I would call what I would say is you're treating it like a lifestyle a lifestyle option rather than the truth because the way Christianity actually works is this is the revealed truth about reality as your choice is I'm either going to conform to that reality and be a follower of Christ because that's the truth or I'm going to deny it and reject it
Caleb Gray (09:06.527)
Mm.
Alan (09:27.381)
But in the contemporary world, in a secular world, we often think in terms of lifestyles, and we think Christianity is a lifestyle that I put on. Not something that's true, but just something that's beneficial for me.
Caleb Gray (09:35.616)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (09:40.192)
Right. And would you say there's potential danger in that in terms of... I know there's obviously benefits to putting on that lifestyle because there's a lot of good that comes from Christian morals. But what's the potential dangers of that?
Alan (10:00.022)
Yeah, so there's a tension here. As you said, there are some benefits. One thing I think can happen is, to use a previous example I gave of parents who bring their kids to church, is that the kids actually hear the gospel and become faithful believers. The parents didn't come because they thought Christianity was true, but the kids become true believers. And so I think there's a lot of good. I would rather have people sitting in church,
as cultural Christians than not going to church at all. Because at least, you know, at least if it's a gospel preaching church, they're hearing the gospel and there's that opportunity for them to really believe as opposed to being out in the world and really just being inundated with secular messages. But there is a danger, and that danger is you can feel like you're inoculated from...
Christianity, like you don't need to hear about what the cross means because you already know what it means. And so there's no, there's nothing you need to repent of, there's nothing you need to do, there's nothing you need to understand about yourself. You can just, again, just treat it like a lifestyle. And, and a lifestyle, lifestyle options often don't ask you to sacrifice very much. And so if you if you
Caleb Gray (11:14.082)
Mm.
Alan (11:24.597)
you, if you're a cultural Christian, you probably don't think that Christ is asking you to do what I mentioned earlier, which is pick up your cross and die to yourself daily. And so that's a great danger.
Caleb Gray (11:36.355)
Right.
Yeah okay, and so culturally speaking then what do you think some like big distractions are in our walk with Jesus? We live in a very like technologically advanced society, the digital age, the attention economy, the benefits I can see from that is I'm able to engage in a conversation with yourself who's on the other side of the world and we're able to chat about the gospel and how it
transformative in our everyday lives. But there's also, I suppose, the darker side of those. Yeah, but you, in the thick of this, what have you noticed with regards to culture as some big distractions from our walk with Christ?
Alan (12:30.038)
So there's lots and you've mentioned some of them, just the technological distractions. I want to just highlight one that I think is one historic change that I think probably has pretty radical implications. And that is the time before you fall asleep. Historically speaking, the time after you shut off your light and before you fall asleep was time where you were stuck with yourself. You could avoid yourself all day long.
but eventually you would have to be with yourself and your thoughts and you'd have to take account. You would have to sit there and contemplate who you are, what you've been doing, is your life going in the right direction. These profound questions would hit you because you would be no longer busy. You couldn't read because the lights are off.
Caleb Gray (13:05.381)
Wow.
Alan (13:19.382)
and then you know in you know the 90s and and and before some people would leave their TVs on to they would fall asleep with the TV on to try to Or radio on to try to distract themselves, but it wasn't the same thing now What we can do is because we have cell phones that have their own power source we can We can just sit there and
scroll endlessly until the phone falls from our hands so we can just absolutely exhaust ourselves. And I think just losing that time has been a serious detriment and I was just wondering a couple of days ago what the church would look like if that technology hadn't been invented, if we just had that time, if for some reason cell phones weren't backlit and you couldn't use them to fall asleep.
how many more people would be in the church because they'd be aware of themselves and convicted of their sins. John Calvin talks about how actually knowing yourself is a way, inevitably brings you closer to God, which I find to be fascinating because we tend to be very self -absorbed modern people. But Calvin's point is when you really know yourself, you recognize two things. First, you recognize how you've been blessed by God and,
Caleb Gray (14:18.374)
Wow.
Alan (14:42.069)
You see the good things in your life and recognize they came from somewhere and so those good things call you to be thankful to God. And then the other thing is it reveals your sin nature. When you look inside yourself, you realize, gosh, I need a savior and that draws you upward to God. And so my challenge is what happens when we don't have the time or we're trained.
Caleb Gray (14:59.653)
Well.
Alan (15:07.925)
by technology and by society to be constantly efficient, constantly productive, constantly doing things, constantly scrolling, so that we never have time to be introspective and to contemplate and to reflect on where we are and who we are and what we are. And so I think that's a big distraction.
Caleb Gray (15:20.837)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (15:26.821)
Yeah.
That's huge and I love what you're saying as well because yeah, I wonder what the church would look like. I wonder what our own lives would look like in terms of friendships and relationships as well. I came across a stat recently. It was a research done in America and they said that 80 % of people, I know Australia wouldn't be far off, would go to bed with their phones. So that's like a...
huge statistic and then out of that there was even a I can't remember the exact stat but it was a crazy amount of people would go to sleep with their phones so like their their phone would be under their pillow or They'd be laying on your phones are almost like what you're saying is you're scrolling until you just fall asleep It's it's this this appendage connected to you and Yeah, I think it's it's doing a lot of harm as as you've not
you've said. Yeah, what I was just going to ask off the back of that is we're in a hyper -connected culture, so how does the gospel then help Christians to respond and to engage in these things you're talking about?
Alan (16:33.172)
Yeah, no, that's interesting.
Alan (16:53.781)
Well, I think churches need to do a better job of discipling people in a digital age. And that includes being practical, saying practical things like when you're in church, use a physical Bible instead of a phone. Because if you're on a phone, you're going to be getting notifications. If you're reading your Bible on your phone, you're getting notifications distracting you. You're going to get text messages. You're going to be tempted to just swipe over and...
scroll through social media quickly or check your email quickly, these sorts of things. I think churches need to practically encourage people to set aside time to be alone with themselves and God and be still and know that He is God, really making that space for contemplation so that we can...
We can be convicted of our sins. If we're never being reflective, it's going to be hard for us to be convicted of our sins, and that process of sanctification will be stifled by our own busyness. And that's concerning. But we serve a God who loves us and desires us to change, and so I don't think that technology can keep us from being sanctified. We're justified, and He will make us righteous.
But we need to be practical about the way we use devices so that we can do our part in just making ourselves available to be convicted and to be and to grow.
Caleb Gray (18:28.714)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (18:32.779)
Yeah, I like that and it's there's that intentionality behind using our devices and recognizing that yeah, there's there's people far smarter than I am creating algorithms that are there to keep me hooked. So if I'm not intentional, then I'll be intentionally shaped by by them, which is a scary thought. But it happens without us even realizing.
Yeah, so why do you think it's so difficult? Just going back to what you said before, so the time before you fall asleep is really important because it creates a space, a contemplative space where you can become self -aware of those often negative emotions and feelings that may come up. Why do you think it's so difficult for us to engage in that?
Alan (19:02.613)
Absolutely.
Caleb Gray (19:31.884)
that environment and why do we want to busy ourselves to avoid that?
Alan (19:33.654)
Hmm.
Alan (19:39.158)
So I think there are two main reasons for that. One is our basic sin nature. So we humans have been avoiding themselves for as long as they have existed. There's this great moment in Plato's Socrates's Apology where he says that he would stand on the street corner in ancient Athens.
and he would yell at Athenians and tell them, you are citizens of the greatest city in the world and all you're doing is spending your time working, making money, trying to become famous, and you're totally neglecting the bigger questions in life, like what is good, what is true, what is beautiful. And so here we are in ancient Athens, and this is still a problem. People were still being so busy that they neglected the truth.
Caleb Gray (20:26.893)
Wow.
Alan (20:36.47)
And then you have Pascal blaze Pascal in France in the 17th century I believe Who who's talking about diversions and he says that that we like to divert ourselves to death? Because we we don't want to face our sin nature. We don't want to acknowledge What we are and our need for a Savior. So this is an ancient problem and so that's that's
of what's going on. We're afraid to be alone with ourselves because when we're alone with ourselves we feel how insignificant we are or insecure we are I should say, not insignificant, but insecure we are and our need for a savior and we don't want to face that. So that's one reality. The other reality I think is that the modern world creates a lot of anxieties and stressors that are...
hard to cope with. And so we have these coping mechanisms like distraction to make us, to allow us to get through the day. And so a part of this is a problem called technique. A French sociologist, Jacques Ellul, describes technique as the maximization of efficiency in every sphere of human activity. That's a rough paraphrase. But what he means by that is in
Every part of our lives we are taught that we have to be the most efficient possible So whether we're mowing the lawn doing the laundry having sex buying a car buying a house Doing homework prepping a sermon whatever we're doing. We have to do it the most efficiently and What that does is it creates a great burden on you you feel like if I'm not doing the if I'm not doing things the most efficient way possible I'm I'm a moral failure and
Caleb Gray (22:20.975)
Mm.
Alan (22:29.174)
That's a great burden to carry. And I think a lot of modern people walk around feeling inadequate and insecure. And so they divert themselves. So when these feelings of inadequacy and insecurity come up, instead of saying, hey, this regime of technique is a lie, and it's not true that I have to be the most efficient possible in every area of my life, instead of doing that, what they do is they blame themselves, and then they divert themselves.
Caleb Gray (22:37.616)
Mm.
Alan (22:58.741)
they distract themselves. So I think those are the two main areas that are two main reasons why we are so drawn to distraction.
Caleb Gray (22:59.6)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (23:09.586)
Well, that's, it makes me think of like the necessity of practicing something like the Sabbath, like a day of rest, which just creates that disruptive interruption to the, the norm of everyday efficiency, everyday busyness in, which just sort of swarms us in our, in our culture. have you, have you looked into the Sabbath much in terms of in relation to,
Alan (23:18.485)
Yes.
Caleb Gray (23:39.154)
What's your thoughts on engaging with that and how it stands against cultural patterns?
Alan (23:48.15)
Yeah, so I talk about this a little bit in my first book, Disruptive Witness. I think the Sabbath is just this miraculous godsend, you know. You know, Christ says that he created the Sabbath for man, and I think that's true, that there's a way in which the Sabbath rest gives us a peace in his powerfully countercultural...
Part of the trick though is that when you when you practice Sabbath rest you can't think to yourself I'm doing this rest so that I can be more efficient throughout the rest of the week, right? Because that's not rest that's still work It's just a different, you know different language, but it's still work And I think that's what a lot of us do we think I okay. Okay, I need some leisure time I need some rest so that I can be more efficient but Sabbath rest is this
Caleb Gray (24:28.337)
Right.
Caleb Gray (24:35.985)
Right.
Alan (24:47.125)
holding out of our hands to God and saying, I can take my hands off the wheel and I know that you will provide. I can stop laboring and I know that you will provide. I am not the master of my own ship. You are. And I trust you to care for me. I could be busy. I could be frantic and trying to fix everything. But I trust that you will take care of things and you will provide for me. So I give up. And...
That's a radical idea in a culture that says you need to be maximizing your profit and efficiency and productivity and optimizing yourself in every way possible all the time. And that's the culture that we live in, this constant pressure to be self -improving. And the Sabbath comes along and says, you can just rest. You can just sit back and allow God to be in charge and just enjoy Him.
I think a lot about the story of Martha and Mary and, you know, Mary sits at Jesus' feet and Martha is busy trying to get all the, you know, the cooking done and the cleaning done and she gets mad at Mary for not helping in the Gospels. And I sympathize with that tremendously because...
I feel that pressure to just, you know, I've got to do stuff before I can rest before God. I have to do stuff. I've got to get everything done. Once everything's done, everything that I'm responsible for is everything's cleaned up, everything's done, then I can rest before God. And Christ's answer is there's only one thing that's necessary. And that one thing that's necessary is what Mary's doing, which is resting at Christ's feet. It's not this...
Caleb Gray (26:33.298)
Well...
Alan (26:35.829)
Busyness, it's not this action. It's not this constant self -improvement. It's just resting before God and so there's a kind of I Describe it. I think in you are not your own my second book is a kind of action in stillness. It's this it's a Paradoxical action that Christians are called to take where we where we act by being still while we we sit and you know, I
and know that he is God instead of trying to busy ourselves constantly.
Caleb Gray (27:09.3)
Well, that's, yeah, I think it's a, it's a discipline that needs to be learned. It's, it seems so foreign in, in our culture, like what you're saying. but it is so, so good to have that practice to remind ourselves that, yeah, life isn't all about being efficient. there's a lot of joy in just sitting at, at Jesus feet.
And I think that sort of highlights that relational aspect of our relationship with Christ and God the Father and the Holy Spirit. It's not like what can we get out of this, but it's how much can we enjoy each other. I can't remember who said the quote, but it goes something along the lines of two...
Alan (27:56.596)
Hmm.
Caleb Gray (28:04.405)
to look at the father looking back at me in love. And it's just this beautiful reminder of like, that's how pleasant is it to be in that place where you can look at your father who's looking back at you in love. And it sort of just, it seems to just set everything right in my soul when I think of that. It's just beautiful. Yeah. So, mention,
Alan (28:09.557)
Hmm.
Alan (28:21.62)
Yeah.
Alan (28:28.437)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (28:34.23)
Just want to chat a bit about your, is it your fourth book? Your most recent one on getting out of bed?
Alan (28:41.398)
I wish it was my fourth book. It's my third book.
Caleb Gray (28:42.454)
Is it? it's your third. Apologies. Well, your most recent book, what, what, what motivated you to, to write on getting out of bed and what's it about?
Alan (28:47.157)
No, it's fine.
Alan (28:55.734)
Yeah, so there are three things. One is my own struggles with mental health and just this acute awareness that it's challenging to be a Christian and to deal with mental, what I call mental affliction in the book. And that includes diagnosed mental illnesses and just the regular depression, anxiety and frustration of everyday life. That there's...
Not a lot of resources out there to help you walk through that. And so it raised a lot of questions for me, my own suffering, and I wanted to be able to almost write a letter to myself giving myself what I hope to be wise advice on how to persevere. The other thing was that I work with college students, and right now, at least in America, there's a nationwide mental health crisis among college students across the country.
the wait list to see campus counselors tend to be very long. A lot of young people are suffering. And I meet with a lot of students who are going through challenging things. And so I was acutely aware that these young people need wise counsel. They need help to figure out what does it look like as a Christian to walk through mental suffering?
That's sort of the question that I'm trying to get at. And then the third thing was there was a fairly high profile and tragic suicide around the time I was thinking about this book that made me ask the question, what does suicide communicate to other people? And that's not a question people like to ask because it sounds like you're blaming the person who made that choice.
But I think it's a question that we have to ask because it does communicate something to other people and that communication matters. It shapes people's lives. And so the heart of the book is kind of a response to that. It's...
Caleb Gray (30:57.59)
Hmm.
Alan (31:12.407)
The thesis of the book is that everybody at one point or another has to ask the question, why get out of bed or why live? What is this all about? Why is it worth putting up with great mental affliction and suffering? Because some tragedy is going to hit you or some mental illness or disorder or some turmoil because life is filled with suffering. We used to know this. The church used to teach this. But today we've...
adopted this very modern view that all suffering can be fixed and there are easy answers and whether that's prayer or or therapy both of which I think are excellent But we we tend to think that those things are just going to magically make these problems disappear if we just have enough money and we put enough Effort into it. We can make all our suffering go away and that's not reality suffering is going to be there And so what do you what do you do with that?
Caleb Gray (31:46.484)
Mmm.
Caleb Gray (31:59.795)
Mm.
Alan (32:08.984)
What kind of answer do you have for the question, why get out of bed when you're going through a period of mental affliction? And one of the main answers that I give is that to get out of bed is to bear witness to other people of the goodness of life. When you are suffering and you choose to get out of bed and keep living, what you're communicating to others is that life is.
fundamentally good even though it is hard and that gives other people hope to keep going.
Caleb Gray (32:41.95)
That's brilliant. It reminds me of that Viktor Frankl quote from Man's Search for Meaning that everything can be taken away from a man, but one thing, which is to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances. And he wrote that in the thick of a concentration camp where friends, family were being tortured and put to death. So that is a beautiful...
definition that you gave to to be able to make that choice could you just repeat it again?
Alan (33:19.321)
Yeah, so I think we all have the choice to get out of bed and by getting out of bed when we're going through suffering, we're communicating to other people that life is fundamentally good, that even when it's hard, it's fundamentally good. In a sense, it's a bit of a Christian existentialist text because it really does focus on this choice, on this choice that we have to act. And in the book, I talk about the fact that, you know,
all the counseling in the world, all the medication in the world, all the biblical counseling or secular counseling or therapy, all of those things can be good, but at the end of the day, you're the one who has to make the choice. And it's a powerful choice because it communicates to other people something about what life is about, because those other people are gonna go through times of suffering too. And when they see you persevering and being resilient, that...
Caleb Gray (34:12.022)
Mm.
Alan (34:16.954)
that opens up the possibility of them being resilient and persevering as well.
Caleb Gray (34:23.287)
Brilliant. And so why do you think there's been such a huge epidemic and crisis in mental health, particularly in the youth or the young adults of this generation?
Alan (34:38.714)
So I mean, I think social media is the biggest culprit. But part of social media has to do with this pressure to create an identity. So I get to this in my second book, You Are Not Your Own, this idea that everyone is responsible in the modern world. Everyone is responsible for creating their own identity, their own purpose, their own meaning, their own values, their own sense of belonging. And that's an inhuman burden.
we're not made to bear that burden. And when we have to bear that burden, we crumble under the weight. So radical autonomy, radical individualism, which I think reigns supreme in the West, radical individualism is an inhuman weight to bear. And I think young people feel it most acutely because they're targeted by it on social media. So if you feel like I've got to create an identity that's interesting, that's attractive,
Caleb Gray (35:22.679)
Mm.
Alan (35:38.074)
that's impressive, that's interesting, then you're constantly having to reinvent yourself and promote yourself and brand yourself, and it's this endless mill of effort. And meanwhile, as you're on social media, you're realizing you're being confronted with people who are more attractive than you, more interesting than you.
Caleb Gray (36:06.04)
Right.
Alan (36:07.161)
worth more attention than you. And so you're always being, you're always hyper aware of your inadequacy. And yet there's this desperation to be someone. And that's a terrible place to live in. That's a terrible space to live in. So I think that's really hard. Another, I think, contributing factor that I've been thinking about for my fourth book is the lack of mentorship. I think a lot of young people don't have any mentors. They don't have any elder figures in their life.
who they can go to for wise counsel and advice. And I say that having worked with so many college students who are hungry for that and they just, there haven't been people like that in their lives. And, you know, life is hard and it's complicated and it's confusing and you need people that you can go to to get wise counsel. And in our highly individualist culture, I think we've...
Caleb Gray (36:45.21)
Mmm.
Alan (37:05.722)
drifted away from that, at least in America. We're sort of just leaving young people to figure it out for themselves, or we're lecturing at them, but we're not entering into these mentor relationships.
Caleb Gray (37:13.242)
Right. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (37:18.394)
That is super fascinating that you brought that up because I was literally having a conversation with my wife the other day regarding, in terms of outer mentorship, I was asking her the question, have you noticed there's either it seems like there's a lack of like an elderly presence in church congregations and also there seems to be a lack of where there are people who are older, this
participation in younger people's lives or lack of interest. I haven't, I've got no research to back this up other than just the experience, but it's fascinating that you've said that, that that could be a contributing factor because yeah, I think we learn from each other and we learn from other people encouraging and like you said, not lecturing down at you.
Alan (37:52.14)
Yeah.
Alan (37:57.914)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (38:16.89)
but sort of encouraging and maybe there's room to say that we've lost this art form of mentorship. How would you encourage the church body to sort of pursue this?
Alan (38:34.33)
So I think it has to come from different angles, but I think it needs to be preached from the pulpit that the fact that we do not belong to ourselves, but we belong to God, and because we belong to God, we belong to His church, His bride, and that means we have obligations. And so if you are...
retired and your mindset is now is the time for me to maybe do some church ministry but to travel and explore and I just have radical freedom now. I just want to say you still belong to the church and people need your wisdom and this is an opportunity for you to enter into the lives of younger people and you're probably going to have to take the initiative because the younger people probably aren't going to come to you because they're not, they want mentorship but they...
Like you said, there's just Yeah, exactly we've sort of you said you lost we've lost that art and that's come on from the mentee side and the mentor side and so I think taking that initiative and entering into young people's lives and Offering them counsel offering them advice praying for them praying with them. That's what needs to be done It's a and and I think older people and this is not just the elderly but you know, it's you know, middle -aged people to
Caleb Gray (39:29.752)
May not know how to ask or something, yeah.
Caleb Gray (39:36.792)
Mm.
Alan (39:58.426)
need to know that they have wisdom to offer younger people and that wisdom is valuable because I think what sometimes can happen is because we're so radically autonomous we think these younger people, they don't want to hear what I have to say. I have nothing to offer them. I'm useless. And that's just not the case. That said, I think when you understand that you have a responsibility to mentor and love younger people, part of the...
Caleb Gray (40:13.111)
Mm.
Alan (40:28.282)
is that you have to yourself pursue wisdom. So you need to be in the Word, you need to be in prayer, you need to be understanding the times and culture and doing the hard work of being a wise person. You don't get to just sit back and relax and mind your own business. You have to be active and when you do that you really can bless people who need that voice of wisdom in their lives.
Caleb Gray (40:55.738)
I think those are some excellent thoughts. Yeah, and I look forward to reading that book when it comes out as well. So just diving back to what we're on before, in moments of experience suffering or when you're wrestling with sorrow, despair, anxiety or mental illness, how does faith provide comfort or guidance?
Alan (41:23.705)
in so many ways.
One thing that can happen to you when you're going through a period of anxiety or depression, one thing that almost always happens to you is that you lose sense of what is real. You feel like your life is meaningless. You feel like your future is hopeless. You feel like you're facing an insurmountable problem. And...
What faith does is it says objectively those things are not true. You are loved by God. You are created and sustained in every moment God is creating you again. And he's intentionally preserving your life because he loves you. So whatever you feel isn't reality. And it's hard to accept in those moments of doubt or in those moments of depression or anxiety.
but it's something that you can cling on to. And what you can do is you can say, because I know I am loved and cared for, and God knows me intimately, and he has a plan for my life that I can trust in, even though it may be hard, you can take the next step. And that's the important thing. Not that you're gonna magically feel better. You're not gonna magically...
Well, most of us, when we recognize these truths about our faith, we don't, you know, the depression just doesn't automatically lift, the anxiety doesn't just magically go away. Instead, what it does is it gives us the motivation to keep moving, to keep doing things. And that's what we're called to do, is to be faithful, to serve God and to love our neighbor. And,
Caleb Gray (43:02.364)
rise.
Alan (43:16.857)
in order to do that we have to be motivated, we have to be grounded in reality. And so I think faith can give us that hope. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (43:28.99)
That's brilliant. Yeah, that's brilliant. Just that faith does create that grounding in what is true and what is real. And even that brings clarity because I know when I myself have gone through times of anxiety and just being depressive, it's been exactly like what you're saying is you just lose a sense of what is real. So...
that life becomes purposeless and you lose that motivation because you don't have a solid grip on reality and on that fundamental truth that God's made life good and that's what underpins our humanity. So as a church community then with people who
Alan (44:14.553)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (44:25.695)
experience pain, experience suffering in various ways. How can that function play a role in supporting people as they go through inevitable suffering and pain?
Alan (44:42.458)
Yeah, that's a great question. The church has done better on this, I think, on the whole. The evangelical church has done a little bit better on this issue of helping people who are going through mental affliction. There's a greater openness. There's less stigma around mental health. And that's great. When I grew up in the church, there was this...
you know, it was sort of explicitly taught that going to a psychologist or taking psychiatric medication was sin, was just, you know, not dealing with your sin, and that's the problem, and you just need to sort of pray that away. And I think that in most spaces, not all, I can think of a notable exception, but most spaces, we've moved away from those, from that ignorant position. And that's great, so that's great. But I still think that for most,
Caleb Gray (45:17.599)
Wow.
Alan (45:38.235)
Christians, for most people, modern people, their illness, their mental illness or affliction remains hidden. And Christians often feel this pressure because they want to make Christianity look good. They often feel this pressure to hide their suffering, to not share with other, even other people in the church that they're going through difficult times. And so what I think this requires is...
It requires us to be open in groups of friends, community groups, small groups, Bible studies, in safe spaces. We need to open up about our own struggles because there's something interesting that happens when you open up about your struggles. It allows other people to open up about theirs. And I've seen this happen when someone is honest and says, you know, I'm going through this really challenging thing.
Caleb Gray (46:27.522)
Okay.
Alan (46:33.755)
people realize this is a safe space to share and to encourage each other and it enables other people to share. And that's where we can start caring each other. That's where we can start bearing each other's burdens and praying for each other and walking with each other, sitting with each other. I've had a friend just come over and sit with me when I was going through a difficult time before. You know, getting calls and texts of encouragement. There's all kinds of.
of benefits that can happen, but we've got to break down this barrier of vulnerability, this fear of being vulnerable. Now, I do think it's important to be prudent about who you share your struggles with. I don't recommend that people go sharing their struggles with everyone on the planet. There is a kind of modern way of dealing with mental health that makes...
Caleb Gray (47:11.362)
Mm.
Alan (47:29.852)
mental illness into an identity marker. So as part of your identity is that you have this thing and I think that's really unhealthy. But on the other hand, we need to be opening up to people and bearing each other's burdens and just asking people when they do share their burdens, what can I do to help? How can I help you? Do you need me to check in on you? Do you need me to pray for you?
Caleb Gray (47:35.011)
Right.
Alan (47:59.227)
What is it that you need so that I can be a help to you?
Caleb Gray (48:04.994)
Yeah, that's brilliant. I love that. One of the questions I had while you're talking was how do we then respond to someone who's experiencing suffering or have others around us who are experiencing suffering? And that's just a great response is asking how can you help or even you mentioned you had some friends just sit with you sometimes. The worst thing we can do is talk or give an opinion or
give a word of advice or something we think may be helpful and when the most helpful thing is just being present with that person. It's beautiful. Yeah, it also reminds me of, I had a conversation with someone recently and they're saying around similar things when they're going through mental health.
Alan (48:44.795)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (49:02.981)
like a mental health crisis, they said something that was so comforting was that someone reminded them that even when they walk through the valley of the shadow of death, that Jesus is with them and they're saying even in that valley of the shadow of death that's still a part of God's kingdom in the sense of Jesus' presence is there with you.
Alan (49:20.941)
Hmm.
Caleb Gray (49:30.693)
And that was just such a beautiful reminder of like what your friend did with yourself is just being present and sitting. Yeah, such a great reminder. What would you say has been some other helpful things that the Gospels sort of highlighted to yourself in journeying through
Alan (49:31.644)
Yeah.
Alan (49:40.635)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (50:00.421)
various depressions, anxieties, mental health afflictions, like you said, what have been some other helpful things?
Alan (50:12.67)
I think one realization that has recently blown my mind is the fact that I have a duty to love myself. Growing up in the 90s, I heard a lot about self -love in the 2000s too, a lot about self -love from secular sources, and it always rubbed me the wrong way. It always felt like...
you're just telling people to love themselves for the sake of loving themselves. That's not a reason to love yourself. You should love yourself because it's important to love yourself. That's a tautology. That's circular reasoning. That's not a reason. And it always felt fake and artificial to me. And then I was reading this Thomas Aquinas scholar, Josef Pieper, in an essay on love, and he pointed out that if God loves us,
and we can't possibly know better than God, then we have an obligation to love ourselves. And that just blew my mind, because it made total sense. The reason I love myself is not because I feel like I deserve it, it's because God first loved me. We love because God first loved us. And that's the principle at work there. So it's actually, when we love ourselves, we're echoing God's proclamation.
Caleb Gray (51:26.085)
Well...
Alan (51:35.231)
That he loves us and that isn't God honoring thing. It is a God honoring thing to love yourself and have respect for yourself That's not pride That's not haughtiness That's not self -absorption. It's properly echoing God's pronouncement that you are loved and Self -love is really important when you're going through mental struggles, especially long -term because what will happen is you'll start to feel
Caleb Gray (51:53.767)
Mm.
Alan (52:03.327)
this additional layer of shame and guilt for being stuck. So you're depressed for a week or whatever. And in addition to the depression, now you have this added burden of, well, I'm not pulling my weight as a husband or father or wife or mother or friend or son or daughter, whatever it might be. I'm not contributing. I'm falling behind. I'm not a part of things. I'm not present. I'm a failure. And this added burden and then...
What happens is you just start beating yourself up. You just start all this negative self -talk about how terrible you are, and that's not loving yourself. That's not having compassion for yourself. And so that's one of the things that's really blown my mind and made me rethink things. There is a reason why we should love ourselves. It's because God first loved us.
Caleb Gray (52:43.623)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (52:57.769)
Beautiful. And even in that, there's that, the logic there is allowing God to love you as well. Like you said, God first loved us, so it's accepting that and part of accepting that is what you're saying is that self -love. Yeah, brilliant. What do you wish more people knew about, yeah, about what you've written in your book or about Jesus?
Alan (53:07.39)
Yeah.
Alan (53:14.814)
Yeah, absolutely.
Alan (53:31.006)
Hmmmm
I feel like those are two different questions. Yeah, I could go two different directions. I think...
Caleb Gray (53:36.202)
They're two different. Yes, 100%.
Alan (53:47.583)
You know, I wish that they would know that, I guess that concept that Jesus, that God created them and he actively sustains them moment by moment in an act of love. The fact that you exist is an act of love by a God who knows you and desires you to know him. So I think that's what I would say about that.
What I would say about my book is, my last book on getting out of bed, I would say I want people to know that it's not a self -help book. It's not a memoir about my own sufferings. It's not professional advice from an expert. Instead, it's like a letter from a friend who loves you and wants you to hear some hard but beautiful words, hopefully.
to give you the courage to persevere.
Caleb Gray (54:47.369)
Awesome. I love that. And yeah, I had two simultaneous thoughts at the same time. That's why I asked both of them because I was like, I can't decide which one. Apologies. My brain sort of froze and then I was just like, I'm just going to go with both of them. So if people are wanting to find out more about yourself, your work, what you're involved in, or even grab a copy of your recent book or one of your books, where would you direct them to?
Alan (54:56.927)
That's fine.
Alan (55:03.231)
Yeah, that's great.
Alan (55:17.184)
Alan noble calm. Alan noble calm You can find me on Twitter at the Alan noble So both of those places will will will get you to me You
Caleb Gray (55:30.859)
Awesome. I can put a link up in the episode description as well for people as well to find that. Yeah, well, thanks so much for carving out the time and having this conversation. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, you've clearly got such a insightful and beautiful perspective of the world around us and how the gospel shapes that.
So I've just really enjoyed this conversation and thank you for sharing with us.
Alan (56:04.32)
Thank you.
Caleb Gray (56:06.889)
Chat soon.
