Dr. Ingrid Faro
Key Takeaways
Create safe spaces for survivors of abuse and trauma to share their stories and seek help.
Prioritize relationships and love one another well in the church.
Understand that every human being is created in the image of God and deserves to be treated with dignity and value.
Recognize that evil is anything that goes against the goodness of God.
Seek healing and restoration for both survivors and abusers. Align our perspective with God's perspective on what is good and evil
Recognize the ripple effect of our actions and the interconnectedness of all things
Listen well and seek help from counselors or safe people when supporting those who have experienced suffering or abuse
Engage in the healing process and move towards forgiveness
Create safe spaces within church communities to discuss evil, suffering, and lament
Be aware of and supportive towards those experiencing abuse
Episode Transcript
Caleb Gray (00:00.84)
Welcome to the Upside Down People podcast. Ingrid, Farah, I'm so glad to be having a conversation with you. How are you going on the other side of the world?
Ingrid Faro (00:09.902)
doing really well, we're hitting a little bit of warmer weather and I always enjoy that.
Caleb Gray (00:14.312)
Yes, well, we're chatting before and you're saying, so you're in Chicago. I know Chicago is known for its icy cold shivering to the bone sort of winters. Is that something you experience? Is it something that you enjoy?
Ingrid Faro (00:31.918)
Well, after having friends in Montana and friends who grew up just north of Siberia, I don't complain about the cold anymore. So we have some older and also friends in Florida who send videos of alligators walking in their neighborhood. I'm like, I'll take the snow and ice anytime over alligators in my neighborhood. So I don't complain. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (00:38.537)
wow.
Caleb Gray (00:53.384)
brilliant. Yeah, I doubt you'll ever find any alligators wandering their ways through the streets of Chicago. It would be an interesting sight. Brilliant. Well, I'm looking forward to having a conversation and just gleaning a bit of your wisdom around the problem of evil and navigating abuse and suffering, because that's a space that you're known for. Before we dive into the heart of the conversation,
Ingrid Faro (01:01.206)
That's right. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (01:23.816)
Something I like doing with our guests is just finding out a bit about them. So maybe you could share, yeah, something people may find surprising about yourself.
Ingrid Faro (01:35.054)
Well, my first career was in nutrition and dietetics. I was an associate professor of nutrition. And then during part of that, I was in the insurance industry for many years, started some different agencies and a few businesses and so forth. And then I got into theology. So it all makes perfect sense, of course.
Caleb Gray (01:41.0)
wow.
Caleb Gray (01:53.833)
Yeah, from vegetables to the word of God, veggies to meat. That's brilliant. My wife's a dietician, so she's from America as well, just close to Chicago in Indiana. Yeah, so I'm well aware of that field, but it is, like you said, a very different field to where you find yourself now.
Ingrid Faro (01:58.382)
Exactly. Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (02:11.758)
yeah.
Caleb Gray (02:22.857)
How was that journey? How did that unfold? How did you find yourself where you're at now? And maybe you can share a bit about, yeah, what is it that you currently do?
Ingrid Faro (02:32.814)
Yeah, what led me to study theology was I had been through a lot of trauma and abuse and I had so many questions and it seemed like I would just ran from one, fell into one, either abuse or trauma to another. And so I was, I remember one point driving in my car and there were periods of time where I would just, that would be the place where I would.
because I didn't know what else to do. I couldn't make any sense of anything in my life. And I do tell some of the stories in my book, Demystifying Evil, because it's part of the journey. But I remember at one point saying, God, I don't even know why I still believe in you. I don't see any goodness. I don't see your hand at work. And I knew the only reason I still believed in God was because I had encountered God's goodness at...
at an earlier time in my life. And that was the only reason I said, the only reason I believe in you is that I know I've met you before. So I'm not gonna quit, but I have no idea. And eventually it was continuing problems that I ran into and things that I experienced and not wanting to live, being jealous of funerals, why do I have to stay? And finally I'd work myself into a disability. So I was doing very well in business, everything, the more I could work.
Caleb Gray (03:34.057)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (03:48.841)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (03:54.798)
and throw myself into business the less I had to think or feel what I was feeling or listen to my own thoughts. So after I worked myself into a disability where I had to actually sit still for a while, and that was the first time maybe ever in my life that I kind of had to start feeling what I felt because I was actually sitting still long enough and it was so hard to sit still. And, but that.
Caleb Gray (03:59.146)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (04:15.655)
Right.
Ingrid Faro (04:18.574)
began this journey. And there was a point where I knew that I had heard from God saying, go get answers for yourself and get them from scripture. And I felt like for me, get them from the Greek and the Hebrew, which was, so I started studying theology quite a bit later in life after two very full careers.
Caleb Gray (04:25.93)
Wow, that's a...
Caleb Gray (04:35.37)
Wow.
Wow, that's amazing. And then so that led you into, you specialize in the Old Testament. That's where you've become a professor as well and you've done lectures in that space.
Ingrid Faro (04:54.894)
Yeah, I studied both the Greek and the Hebrew, but my doctorate was in theology with a concentration in Old Testament and the Semitic languages. And my particular focus was, well, my dissertation was on evil from the Hebrew text of Genesis, because I thought, well, let me start at the beginning, because even when I was starting my PhD, I still wasn't sure if God was good. I still didn't know if God was just. I didn't know if God loved me. So I came in with questions, not with any
Caleb Gray (05:12.716)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (05:24.8)
answers with just a bunch of questions. And so it's been really an incredible journey of discovery and finding out.
how honest I could be with myself, with God, and eventually with other people because I had really isolated myself also for quite a period of time. So it was just, I used to be afraid to talk to people. I, even though I was good in business, but on a personal level, I just wanted to shut myself out from the world. So it's really been an incredible journey. So I went from really not wanting to be alive to now I'm just so excited because there's things so
Caleb Gray (05:43.948)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (06:04.576)
so much has become.
clarified in my life and just the sense of purpose and gaining understanding of what happened. Why did all these things happen? So, and I'll just mention a couple. My first husband, I was a Christian, but I was told women couldn't be in ministry and women couldn't study theology and all that. And their job was to get married and have kids and be the one pushing up and supporting their husband. And the only way a woman could be in ministry was to marry someone in ministry. So, and it was just this
Caleb Gray (06:09.005)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (06:14.477)
Wow.
That's beautiful.
Caleb Gray (06:30.478)
Mm.
Ingrid Faro (06:36.256)
this heavily controlled environment.
Caleb Gray (06:39.149)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (06:39.918)
The kind of reasons people leave church, because eventually I did leave also. He was studying to be a pastor, had a third of the New Testament memorized, but he was unfaithful and he was abusive. When I called after he broke my nose after several years of marriage, pastor, I called the pastor who said, go home and love your husband. So I went home. I didn't know what else to do. I didn't even know I had an option. And it wasn't until after he tried to kill me that then I heard I knew God had said, if you stay, you will die.
Caleb Gray (06:57.454)
Well...
Caleb Gray (07:09.295)
Well...
Ingrid Faro (07:09.39)
And at that point I really didn't even want to live. But there I was alive. God sent somebody to spare my life. And so that began, I started going to counseling, started, which is when I found out I could actually ask questions that I didn't even know I could, I was allowed to ask, so to speak. And then I found out, like when I teach my classes, there are no questions that are off the table. Ask anything, you know? So, yeah, so I've been, yeah. So that's, that was part of my journey. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (07:12.175)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (07:32.578)
Yeah, no, Karen. Wow. Yeah, or feel free at any point to share that as well. I think it's so important to be able to, yeah, have that open conversation where at times Satan wants us to, like you're saying, isolate, keep things inward and often we feel like we're suffering or
Ingrid Faro (07:38.254)
And then more things kept happening.
Caleb Gray (08:01.714)
needing to cope with our suffering alone when there's people that share our experiences but may not be able to put words to it or may not feel like there's a environment they're able to go to. And just as you're speaking, a thought that I had is, do you feel like, so you were going through these experiences of abuse and domestic violence and you went to the place where you
think that you'd receive help, right, at the church. Do you feel like the church is under -equipped or why does this happen? Because it's a common story, domestic violence within Christian homes. The wife doesn't feel like she can either talk and go to the church or when she does, like in your experience, the answer is...
a really dangerous and destructive one. What's your thoughts on that and how as a community do we shift and change that interaction?
Ingrid Faro (09:01.774)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (09:12.462)
Yeah, the church in the US became so focused on just getting numbers. They were trying to run the church like a business. Let's just be successful and have big numbers.
but there was no focus on relationship. There was no focus on what Jesus actually focuses on, which is how do you love one another well? How do you value? How do you lift up every person as a person of tremendous dignity and worth? And that's, of course, why so many young people have and are leaving the church. I've been speaking out regularly in different types of venues about abuse and about evil for...
well, actually about 15 years, but mostly the last 10 years, but almost every time that I share my story or talk about it, somebody comes forward for the first time and that's been hiding their story because they didn't think they were allowed to talk about it. And so just opening that door that saying, yes, please, let's talk about it. So.
and being able to direct people to get help and that they don't have to stay because it's the problem is as prevalent sadly in Christian communities as in any other communities. So there's so much we haven't taught.
Caleb Gray (10:28.371)
Right.
Ingrid Faro (10:34.638)
and we haven't lived, we haven't been who we need to be, we haven't prioritized. And I call it, some of the churches that I would go to, I call it happy clappy. You know, they didn't want to hear about our problems. And then other people, they're so uncomfortable with suffering and pain and evil, they just want to solve your problems. So they just say something stupid that's actually more painful. And, you know, and, I,
Caleb Gray (10:45.523)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (10:51.859)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (11:00.142)
I'm teaching a class right now actually on evil. And so we just had the first one last night. And so I was just asking, you know, this group of it's a group of 16th. So it's a nice small class. What are some of the really bad responses that you've heard or that have been given to you when you've experienced evil and suffering? And, you know, I mean, it's just.
Caleb Gray (11:16.821)
Brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (11:20.334)
What sin did you do that brought this on you to God needed another little angel in heaven? I mean, just so many horrible things that people say, because they just want to get rid of the problem. They're so uncomfortable. And we need to be safe people.
Caleb Gray (11:30.229)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (11:37.512)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (11:37.518)
We need to be safe places for others to open their hearts. But we first have to sometimes do some healing ourselves in order to get there. So we all just really need to move toward healing, just toward wholeness and make that a priority in our lives and for others so that we can be, the church is supposed to be the hospital, not the corporation. We prioritize.
Caleb Gray (11:45.045)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (11:57.109)
Brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (11:59.022)
systems and institutions rather than people. And it's people. Jesus died for people, not a single institution, not a single organization, for individual people. So.
Caleb Gray (12:06.842)
Yeah. Yeah. I can totally understand that and see that happening even within spaces here in Australia is I think that there's that maybe it's a cultural thing that's like we do live in this society where we have instant gratification. Everything needs to feel good. It needs to look good.
So a problem really challenges those like fundamental values that we have as a culture, whereas if people are experiencing pain and suffering, it's like, well, we that's so like against what we believe in terms of as a culture, like things need to feel good, they need to look good, like that can't be true. So it's a, I get what you're saying. Like our first response is to try and solve it, which is
so unhelpful. It's something that's, yeah, like, it just doesn't, those comments you made are just crazy to think. And also sad in a way that people probably were thinking they're genuinely trying to bring the person into a better place, but doing more damage and harm. What would you say some helpful, I suppose, like gospel principles that
we can engage with when to get more comfortable with suffering and then both with others and then I suppose like you're saying we sometimes need to do that journey of healing from hurt ourselves.
Ingrid Faro (13:47.662)
Yeah, it's important for us to, well, let me actually start with, there's a quote from N .T. Wright, he wrote a book, Evil and the Justice of God. And then he says, people tend to respond to evil in three ways. First, we don't expect it to happen. So second, when evil happens, it slaps us in the face. And he said, therefore we tend to respond in immature and dangerous ways. And so that,
is certainly true in so many of our cultures. It's not true. The students that I have like from Mozambique and Sudan and Uganda and so forth, Nigeria, they're used to persecution and suffering. So they hear that and they said, that's not the way I think because they'll say, from the time I was a little child, I was prepared that there are people who are going to try to kill you. So that's a very different mindset. We're not raised with that mindset, but we have to recognize.
Caleb Gray (14:38.934)
Wow, yeah.
Ingrid Faro (14:44.302)
that and we have to be able to talk about that this world, we are all going to experience suffering, pain and evil. And this is a world at war. We are born into a world that is at war because there's God's kingdom and every other kingdom and every other kingdom is an opposition to God's kingdom. So especially when we come into God's kingdom, there's going to be even more opposition. And Jesus said, in this world, you will have tribulation.
And that word tribulation refers to both external suffering and affliction and internal angst and distress and grief and so forth. They said, but be of good cheer for I've overcome the world. But it starts out, you will have suffering. And Jesus talks about in John 10, the thief comes to steal, kill and destroy, but I've come that you might have life. So we have to recognize there are forces.
from before we're born, we're hearing it when we're in our mother's womb, we're hearing fighting, we're hearing squealing of wheels, we're hearing distressing sounds even before we come into this world. And so our whole life, we are being bombarded with things, but we're told, don't cry. Some people are told, don't express your emotions. We don't wanna hear what you're thinking, because they've got too much stress. If you cry, go away. And rather than...
Caleb Gray (15:59.64)
Right.
Caleb Gray (16:07.257)
Mm.
Ingrid Faro (16:08.398)
being able, being free. And the younger generations are doing that more. I'm seeing now they raise kids and so forth. It's more often, unless they're stressed. And so many families have abuse. And we know people who are abusers will either become, their children will either become abusers or become abused. So we have these family cycles where people have never had an opportunity to heal.
And so they're perpetuating abuse. Usually they're not meaning to. There are some who become so bent that they actually start finding joy in the pain of others or become so hardened and calloused that they're not even aware of it anymore. But so many others just have so much pain, they don't have the capacity to handle a crying child. So we've got to just start with where people are at and come around them as Christians.
Caleb Gray (16:53.785)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (17:07.63)
as people who are loved of God, who loves every single human being. And so that's kind of a start. I was about to launch into something else, but I figured I'd better take a breath.
Caleb Gray (17:19.931)
No, that's brilliant. What were you about to launch into? Now I'm curious.
Ingrid Faro (17:24.27)
Well, one of the most life -changing things I learned in studying Hebrew and studying the ancient Near East and was gaining an understanding of what does it mean to be created in the image of God. And this is life -changing because in all the other cultures at the time, they had two different...
there were two different things that were done with idols, with images, and it's the same word. So they would make images of little gods, and then they would go through these rituals so that that image, whether it was of clay or of stone or of gold or whatever, these rituals so that it would become a god, and then they would put it in their home or in a temple, and it would actually, these rituals were supposed to actually bring the spirit of the gods or the god that they had called to into so that thing became a god of itself.
Caleb Gray (17:56.251)
Right.
Caleb Gray (18:20.092)
Alright.
Ingrid Faro (18:20.142)
but that was still a god. But when it came to people, the only people who had images made of themselves or were considered gods were kings or people, governors, people who were the high, the people with all the power. So you think like Ramesses II, we've all seen statues of Ramesses II, but that was throughout the ancient world. Kings were considered the image of a god and they would have an image made of themselves and frequently there would be a plaque.
or an inscription rather written on it saying, this is the image of Ramses for a second, for example. And the way you treat this image, the king is gonna take it personally. So if you treat this image well, it's as if you're treating the king or the God well. But if you do any damage to this image, he will take it personally, because you're coming against him and his government. So in scripture, when it says that every human being, male and female, is made in the image of God,
Caleb Gray (18:55.836)
Fascinating.
Caleb Gray (19:11.676)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (19:18.83)
It's not just the kings, every human being is God's statue. And that's why there's the prohibition against making any other statues, because we are God's representative. We are his children. And the way we treat every other person, God takes it personally. And the way anyone else treats us, God takes it personally. And we should too.
Caleb Gray (19:25.373)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (19:45.742)
And so it's seeing every single one of us as being that personal image of God, his personal child that he does not want anybody to mess with any of them. So no matter how marred any human being that I meet is, they are still God's image bearer. And my purpose is to help them become restored so that they have their dignity and value restored to them. Their sense of...
Caleb Gray (20:14.768)
Brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (20:15.598)
purpose and being and that is for every human being and that's what we saw Jesus do. And we heard those same words with Jesus when he talks about feeding those in prison and taking care of the poor and he said, whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done it to me. Jesus said, I take personally the way you treat every other human being and your job is to help lift them up and restore them so that they can look like me and know me and that is our job. That's our task.
Caleb Gray (20:30.367)
Well...
Caleb Gray (20:41.278)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (20:45.006)
And that is one of the fundamentals of understanding the difference between what's good and what's evil.
Caleb Gray (20:50.024)
That's brilliant. So with that, if someone is experiencing abuse and experiencing suffering, how do you then reconcile exactly what you're saying that we're made in the image of God, yet often other people who are made in the image of God are the ones inflicting this pain and the suffering and this abuse that we're experiencing on us. How do you wrestle?
with that seemingly contention.
Ingrid Faro (21:22.478)
Yeah, part of it is the person who's being abused. Yeah, it's.
to just first love on that person who's being abused, let them know that they are worthy of love, that this is what has happened, and to be angry with what is happening to them. I remember when my sister found out that I was being abused, and my parents did nothing. They just said, well, you know this. My sister went into a rage, and when I saw that, it was like, that's how I should actually be reacting. Instead, I was like, you know, I was just.
Caleb Gray (21:58.495)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (22:01.166)
you know, just taking it all. And I didn't know that I was even supposed to be angry and saying, but she said, he, you know, how dare he treat you like that? So it was like seeing in a sense, seeing how God's felt. Yeah, that's it is that justice is supposed to get angry when someone's being mistreated. So it also gave me a whole new understanding of what, when God is angry, when someone's being mistreated, it's cause like, you stopped doing that to my child. You know, you're supposed to get angry at it.
Caleb Gray (22:09.44)
Yeah, noticing that injustice. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (22:28.488)
Yeah, yeah.
Ingrid Faro (22:31.054)
And that also gives a person then a sense of their value, that they're valuable. They're not meant to be run over and backed up and beaten around and treated like dirt, scum, and garbage, because they have value. And I remember after I had gone through a series of huge losses, some things continued, and I had actually become homeless at one point. And I had very...
very little income and I'd gone to a grocery store and I had, I was holding two cans, I'd started letting myself go and because I just felt like I'd lost all of my identity. I'd been a wealthy business owner. My second husband had taken his life after nine years of illness. Our son, my son had gotten angry at God and was just, had basically had to leave home before he was 16. It was just like everything had fallen apart. I'd lost everything and.
And so I'm looking at these two cans, one is 10 cents more than the other. And I'm thinking, well, and I knew how much change I had in my pocket to buy food. I'm thinking, well, I really like this one. You know, I'm going through this debate and all of a sudden I heard this voice speaking inside of me, basically saying, who are you? I'm thinking, is that God speaking to me in the grocery store? And then I'm like looking around a little bit, feeling really uncomfortable and I hear again.
Caleb Gray (23:53.345)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (23:54.894)
Who are you? It came a little louder. Then it said, you're the daughter of the most high king. Hold your head high. And I was like, my identity was just put in me in that moment in one of my lowest moments of my whole life after everything that had happened. But that gave me the strength to know who I was, that I could lift my head because God was with me and therefore he was going to help me through all of it. And so trying to imbue that into other people.
Caleb Gray (24:20.898)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (24:24.142)
And you know, and I'll share that and just, but just coming around, loving people, listening, taking time to listen to their stories, to find ways that you can help them, whatever the needs are and finding other people to come help, you know, whatever it is and just being part of a person's life. And, and we know that when we're doing that, God is with us in that process because these are God's children. He's with us in it. And he will help give us strategies of how to help bring healing.
Caleb Gray (24:46.753)
Brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (24:53.934)
to those people. But at the same time, a lot of people don't know how to put up boundaries. They don't know that they can. They think they're supposed to be nice. And I learned along the way it's not nice or good to let anybody run over you. And sometimes Christians will try to be so nice. They think it's OK to let other people just mistreat them. And that's actually allowing evil to win. So again, there's just this multi. But the abusers also need to be dealt with. And but.
Caleb Gray (25:07.299)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (25:21.442)
Right.
Ingrid Faro (25:22.958)
often they need trauma healing also. So, but they still need to be kept away from those that they're causing harm to, and they need to be called out. And so often we're not, you know, we're pastors or people that have the ability, are in that position of relationship to call the abuser out. So often they won't do it. They're afraid, well, you know, this, I've seen time and time again, pastors, yeah, but he gives so much money to the church. We wouldn't want him to leave. And it's like,
Caleb Gray (25:25.539)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (25:30.626)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (25:51.342)
What? No.
Caleb Gray (25:52.453)
Yeah, it's sort of that in itself would make you question your own dignity and your own value if something else which is material is being lifted higher than something that God's created and loves and adores. Yeah, it could create a lot of confusion and hurt which is what you're saying is that the church goes off the track when she becomes a business and not the bride of Christ.
Ingrid Faro (26:00.736)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (26:22.629)
Yeah, so you've obviously done a lot of thinking, you mentioned you wrote the book, Demystifying Evil. I suppose an overarching question is how would you define evil and you call it demystifying evil, which I love the title. There's this mystery to evil and you sort of needing to deconstruct that.
Ingrid Faro (26:22.734)
Exactly. Exactly.
Caleb Gray (26:49.669)
How would you define that? How would you demystify that for us?
Ingrid Faro (26:49.934)
Yes.
Ingrid Faro (26:55.662)
Yeah, and that is of course one of the issues is that when we try to find a definition for evil, like I'll just give a real brief, when Google started from I think it was 2004 to 2017, something like that, they're...
only code of conduct was don't be evil. That was it. And I heard an NPR interview with the former CEO and they're asking him about it. It goes, well, and he says, well, there's, there's not really a definition for evil, except maybe in the Bible or something. That was fascinating. Because, yeah, because most cultures define evil in whatever hits the fancy at the time.
Caleb Gray (27:31.238)
That is fascinating.
Ingrid Faro (27:42.222)
So definitions of what's evil and what's not changes with different cultures. So some things that some people consider evil later on and just the next year may be considered good. And so that was one of the reasons I was like, all right, well, let's see, what does the Bible have to say? So that became my quest. And so as I started just with word study, word and the use of the uses of evil, I continued to do that study. And so I came with a definition from,
Caleb Gray (27:54.725)
Mmm.
Ingrid Faro (28:12.27)
from the scriptural point of view, you have to start with what is good, because that's where scripture starts. It starts in Genesis 1, where God is...
supreme, God has no conflict. He decides to create the heavens and the earth. The Spirit of God moves, God speaks, and then you have this sevenfold refrain. And he looked at what he had made and saw that it was good. So God saw what he had made and declared it good. And that sevenfold refrain means it's a reflection of who God is. So it's telling God is good. Everything that he made is good. God is internally
what he thinks and what he says and what he does are always consistent, not like us. We don't always do insane things. We're not consistent.
Caleb Gray (28:58.887)
Yeah. Don't always follow through on what we speak.
Ingrid Faro (29:04.078)
Yes, yes. And so then I started looking at what are the words that surround the word good. So abundant and flourishing, life -giving and beautiful and delicious even, and even desirable harmony, just where there's peace and where things are, where there's no, nothing bringing death. Blessing is a word, you know? So these are all words that even when we hear them, it's like,
Yeah, and there, then you look at the words evil and the words surrounding the word evil, of course, are death and curse, starving, lack, severe lack that's going to cause potentially death, brokenness, distress, grief, you know, it just goes on, you know, murder and so forth. But then also when you look at the word and God saw.
Caleb Gray (29:31.27)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (29:57.582)
So recognizing this word, God saw that something was good. The next time you see that somebody seeing something is good or evil is in Genesis three, where the woman, the man is right there with her. She sees that this one thing that God said they shouldn't partake of, of thousands, millions of trees, this one tree, don't, don't, you know, there's a boundary, God set a boundary.
Caleb Gray (30:15.368)
Right.
Caleb Gray (30:20.103)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (30:21.038)
We have choices. So this one, do not make this choice. You have choices. I'm giving you choices, but this only one thing of everything that's in there, don't do that. And she saw that it was desirable to make her wise and she took and ate and so forth. And so, and the next time you see that it's the exact same sentence structure in Genesis six before the flood where the sons of God saw that the daughters of...
Caleb Gray (30:32.328)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (30:48.782)
of humanity, daughters of Adam were good, and it uses that word good. So again, and they took whichever they wanted. And so, and then you hear this refrain, for example, of every, just about every king, it gives an evaluation, whether they did what was right or what was evil in the eyes, in the sight of God. And so you start to see, okay, there's God's way of seeing things. And when God sees something that's good, the first,
Caleb Gray (30:54.824)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (31:17.198)
that happened that caused division to come in was seeing things differently than God. So if God sees that something is good, but...
Caleb Gray (31:24.84)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (31:28.846)
then we should see that as good too. And there's a lot more language that goes into that. But if God sees something is evil, and again, scripture uses the word evil a little differently than we do in English. It's got a much broader range of meaning, but it's this whole range of anything that's going to ultimately bring some form of destruction. So I think of again, Jesus' word, steal, kill, and destroy. So anything that will ultimately, could ultimately do that in your own or in somebody else's life or to creation.
Caleb Gray (31:43.56)
Right.
Caleb Gray (31:49.224)
Well...
Ingrid Faro (31:58.67)
is going to be bad from God if it's distorting the way God sees things. So the way we see is really important. Am I seeing things? Well, it looks good to me, so I'm gonna do this. Just like it feels good to me, so I'm gonna do this. And to heck with you, this is good for me. And who cares?
Caleb Gray (32:09.512)
Right.
Caleb Gray (32:16.36)
Which that's the cultural anthem of our time, right? If it feels good for you, you do it.
Ingrid Faro (32:22.158)
Yep, it's your truth, you go for it. But it does not take into consideration love or the other. And so it's self -centered, but there's nothing.
Caleb Gray (32:24.456)
Right.
Ingrid Faro (32:35.598)
There's nothing that we ever do that is just us. Everything we do is going to impact someone or something in some way. There's always the ripple effect. We are not in any way individual entities. Everything is connected. Even with trees, that's true, but now I'm about to go off on a tangent. There's this great thing with life of trees, even trees.
Caleb Gray (32:45.032)
Right.
Caleb Gray (32:55.592)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (32:58.318)
And so how much more humans, you know, all of life is intricately connected. So for us to think that we can do what feels good to me or what I think is good for me without recognizing the ripple effect it's going to have in some way, then I'm missing something that I'm going to cause harm. And so, yeah. And so my simple definition of evil is the corruption of creational.
Caleb Gray (33:02.664)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (33:13.768)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (33:18.888)
That's brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (33:27.022)
and relational goodness. So it's, yeah. So it's, so I see evil is not the absence of good, but it, it, and it even evil gets its force even from good because everything in its original state was good and intended good. So, so just an example, we've got healthy cells in our body. All the cells in our body renew every seven years. Our bodies are made to promote health.
Caleb Gray (33:29.36)
Yeah, no carry on, carry on, please.
Ingrid Faro (33:56.206)
So there's a lot of every little tiny cell in our body has these little factories of life giving things, you know, to little energy plants inside every cell of our body. But if one of those cells goes rogue and becomes distorted, if there's a little mutation or a defect, something like that, it can become cancerous. It can cause a disease. But especially, you know, when you think of like.
cancer is taking a healthy cell that becomes defective and now it starts spreading to the other cells. It gets its force from the goodness of the healthy cell, but it's corrupted it. And you think even of love as another example, love can be the most, it's supposed to be the most amazing, the most beautiful thing that there is in this earth. But love is supposed to hold people with open hands. You don't possess anybody else. But if somebody says, I love you,
and but you don't love them in the same way back and now they want to possess you or own you and take you for example. Now they're taking the power, the force of what was intended to be the most beautiful thing, but now they want it for themselves. And now they can, and we know that can even lead to murder and all kinds of horrific things. So that power of love when it becomes corrupted for what I want, for me.
Caleb Gray (35:04.904)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (35:14.248)
yeah.
Ingrid Faro (35:15.342)
now can become corrupted. So, and you know, you just can look and you continue to see how that, how evil is taking what is good, twisting, corrupting, polluting, distorting it. And now, now it's become evil. Now it's become a destructive force rather than a force for life giving.
Caleb Gray (35:28.936)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (35:36.008)
Yeah, brilliant. And like, thinking back on that Genesis narrative as well is that's exactly like God made people good and he saw that they're good, like very good, and then the serpent, the snake, Satan comes in and corrupts that. I heard it said the other day that if only Adam and Eve, when Satan tempted them with the fruit saying, you're
if you take this you'd be like God. If only they turned around and said to Him, well, why don't you have it then if that's what you're wanting. But obviously that's not what's happened. And another interesting thing that I loved what you said is how it's all relational. So it all impacts one another and God's a God of relationship and union and
Ingrid Faro (36:14.382)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (36:33.96)
community and we see that as well if we look at our own lives, but even back to Genesis is the first thing that sort of happened was isolation. So it's like that corrupted, corrupted choice, corrupted identity, corrupted relationship and then we isolate and it's this negative feedback loop, this negative cycle that ensues after that, which is yeah, really
a really good way, I like the way you've defined evil because then you can really see it for what it is. And I've heard it said before as well in terms of, and I'd love you to speak into this, that when they took the fruit, the knowledge of good and evil, it was that whole thing of they are taking the...
morality choice, so they were the ones who are wanting to decide what was good and what was evil and as a part of apart from what you're talking about how see God sees things as good and God sees things as evil so there's like a there's boundaries but then when we begin to decide what is good and what is evil that's when things get very corrupt very quickly as well is that true?
Ingrid Faro (38:00.078)
Yes, and the one of the beautiful things that I, as I continue to study this and read and talk to people and so forth is, is that God wants us to participate with him in the process of making decisions. And so it's not like God's up there just saying, okay, what do we do? Do this. Okay. You know, we're not robots and, and he wants, he wants us to grow up to be wise like him. And so one of the first places we see that is even in the garden.
Caleb Gray (38:21.071)
Brilliant.
Ingrid Faro (38:29.454)
because in the garden there were still needs and desires and they were good. So much of my Christian life, it's like, you're not supposed to want anything, kind of a almost Buddhist approach, have no needs, no desires, and you will be at peace. Or God is just this dictator, is just, do this, do this, yes, sir, no questions asked, whatever. And yet we see people asking questions all the time. And Jesus has come to me as children, who asks more questions than children. So he wants to ask.
Caleb Gray (38:37.678)
Right.
Caleb Gray (38:49.294)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (38:58.062)
Yeah, exactly.
Ingrid Faro (38:59.662)
But even in the garden, there was something that was not good. It wasn't evil, but it was not good. So the distinction that we see between not good and evil, in the garden, it was not good that Adam was alone. And so God said he would make him, and I prefer the translation, a strong ally, where they would both be working alongside each other because they had been given a task to
guard and protect or to serve, excuse me, to serve and protect the garden. And those are priestly terms. So they were supposed to tend it, take care of it, but also to protect and guard it, which also was an indication that there's a threat, that they were supposed to protect it from a threat. So even in the garden, there's this warning, because it's priestly terms, those two words together and the rest, I'm trying not to get too sidetracked, but those two terms together in the rest of scripture.
Caleb Gray (39:44.492)
Yeah. Wow.
Ingrid Faro (39:58.062)
when they're used together are used for the priests in the tabernacle or the temple. So in the temple, they're supposed to serve it, take care of it, but also protect it from defilement, protect it, anything wrong entering in. So they were supposed to protect this space. That was their job, which also makes Genesis 3, it's like they both failed to do it. But here in the garden, it was not good that the man was alone. And...
Caleb Gray (40:02.671)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (40:07.439)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (40:18.639)
Yeah, yeah
Ingrid Faro (40:24.558)
But God didn't immediately go, no, he's alone, quick, here. He first paraded all the animals past. And several scholars have noted this also. It's like, there was this period, there was a period of waiting where the man is seeing these animals. Well, the giraffe, that's just not gonna cut it for me. And it's not gonna be the flamingo. Not gonna be the jaguar. Everything just kind of goes on. So there was time between the need.
Caleb Gray (40:49.999)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (40:54.03)
and the fulfillment. So that good was not evil, it was simply goodness waiting to happen, waiting to be fulfilled. And God wanted the human because then when the woman did come, that was the first poetry in scripture. Those are the first words. It's like, now this at last. And so even we, when we have needs and desires that God gives us, he gives us needs and desires so we'll participate with him. And so whether it's something as little as,
Caleb Gray (40:55.599)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (41:10.927)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (41:21.102)
I need a job or I need a car or I need a place to live. And then certainly even more so I need a friend or I need, we're supposed to say, okay, Lord, you know, I have these things, you've placed this in me. So how do you want, what's the best way to fulfill it? And usually the answers don't come right away. Sometimes as young Christians they do, but as we get older Christians, it's like, cause the mistake that I made, the problem that I made for myself so often, it's like, well, God, you know that I need this and.
Caleb Gray (41:36.784)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (41:49.838)
You're not bringing it. So I guess I better take care of it myself. See ya. And I would make such a mess of things. So as I was learning this, it was like, all right, now my decisions I'm gonna make with you. And even I remember the first good car buying experience, because a woman buying a car, single woman, not good. Like this time I'm gonna do it with you. So I got some advice from people and I did it completely different and I had a great experience. But.
Caleb Gray (41:53.234)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Caleb Gray (42:01.968)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (42:17.04)
Wow.
Ingrid Faro (42:17.582)
I partnered with God and I talked to other people and it wasn't just like, well, I got to take care of this myself. It's like, God really actually wants to participate with us in our lives as our closest friend and as the father who really is wise and who's the one that really does care about everything in our lives that we can talk to. So situation at work, I say, all right, this isn't right. This is not how it's supposed to be. Lord, how do you want it to be? And give me wisdom, show me the strategy.
Caleb Gray (42:27.12)
Mmm. Wow.
Caleb Gray (42:36.656)
for lanes.
Ingrid Faro (42:47.31)
to help fix this situation that could either be not good or it could be evil. And so it helped me discern what's really going on, helped me see what's really happening. So anyway, it just kind of goes from, it just blows up from there into seeing that from the little things to the massive things that happen in our lives, that God wants to participate with us so that we're not overcome by evil, but we can overcome evil even with good. So from the not good to the evil.
Caleb Gray (42:54.0)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (43:02.576)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (43:08.368)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (43:17.102)
You know, God wants to participate with us from the needs and desires to the blows and impacts that come against us. God wants us to learn how to walk with him and let him walk with us, as well as bringing other good people around us to help us in these situations.
Caleb Gray (43:33.905)
Brilliant. And I think that goes back as well to what you're saying earlier on in the conversation that we wanting all people when they hear of stories of suffering or pain, they want to solve it. But really it's about learning that, well, there's actually a process that you need to journey through and it's about finding God in that space, finding God in that He's not trying to rush us to
end of the tunnel or it reminds me of that kids I've got a two -year -old daughter and she loves the book Going on a Bear Hunt so it's not about like trying to go over your problem or under it or or find a way around it but it's about journeying through it and you're journeying through that with God and it's a process and yeah I think you you read about that in the Bible as well where there's this
Paul talks about the counted all the joy when you face trials of various kinds and it's this that how then how sufferings how intention with patience and joy and it's it's this thing that we we shouldn't try and just shoulder off or push aside but it's this thing that we need to learn how to embrace and work through it. So I'm wondering,
Is there a difference between or distinguishing factor between suffering and evil? Because I feel like suffering is so bad. Like it feels like an injustice. It feels unfair. Like when you, when you're going through it, it's you go through all these things of like, why is this happening to me? And this isn't right. And then you feel like it is evil. Would you say it?
there's a distinguishing between the two or are the two held in tension or are they the same thing? I'm not too sure.
Ingrid Faro (45:40.526)
Yeah, yeah, there's an overlap between the two. So they're not the same, but there's an overlap. And evil will always cause suffering, but there are different kinds of suffering. And so there's suffering that's, I divided into kind of into three categories. So there's external suffering. So suffering that comes at us from the outside because it's a broken world and there's broken people in it.
And so there are things that happen to us, whether it can be nature, it can be car accidents, it can be people coming at, people betraying us doing, but these things that can come at us from the outside and where we have, where we need to take time to think of how am I going to respond? And these things cause different types of suffering. And again, pain is like another category, pain is...
is often the response of suffering. But again, suffering can be like angst, you know, this wide range of suffering. But so when suffering comes from the outside, that's when it's so important to just try to take a breath and not knee -jerk react to it. And pray, talk to God, get a strategy, how should I respond to this, whatever it is. And then there's also the internal suffering.
you know, the suffering that comes from our own depression and anxiety and just the things that have the things from the outside that have gotten inside of us that now we're wrestling with that we also need help from. But then there's a third kind of suffering, which we see in Christ, which is Christ who took our suffering upon himself. But the interesting thing with Jesus, when people tried to take his life, he said, no one takes my life from me, but I lay it down willingly. So he wasn't.
Caleb Gray (47:13.714)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (47:32.659)
Hmm. Well.
Ingrid Faro (47:35.118)
He wasn't gonna let people just throw him off a cliff or stone him, even though people tried. When they tried, he would just walk right away. Or if they would try to attack him verbally, he didn't just take it. He would have something, you know, woe to you, you whitewashed tombs. It wasn't just, isn't Mr. Nice and sweet? I love, you know, he wasn't just, I was blinking his eyes at people. And so.
Caleb Gray (47:41.427)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (47:58.356)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (48:00.846)
But when it was time, he knew and then he willingly laid down his life. And so there are times in our life that, you know, we shouldn't just let people run over us. But we, so again, these different kinds of suffering, they're all a response to evil. And so the suffering becomes, but even just assessing, is this something coming at me? Is this something inside of me? Or is this something where I'm going to decide to help carry the burden?
Caleb Gray (48:05.748)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (48:28.846)
or the evil that's happened to somebody else. Am I going to take that upon myself in the name of Jesus, as a follower of Jesus and lay it at his feet? Because it's too much for us to bear also. Our job is to help carry the burdens, but lay them at Jesus' feet, because I am not the Christ. As John the Baptist said, I am not the Christ, but I can co -labor with him.
Caleb Gray (48:34.099)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (48:49.459)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (48:55.566)
in helping somebody else through their suffering. So again, where I'm still suffering, but it can be the suffering of somebody else. So it's helpful, I think, just to look at the categories and just take time to think about it and pray and talk to good friends or counselors to get advice.
Caleb Gray (48:55.828)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (49:14.805)
Yeah, brilliant. And in terms of like how, like, practically speaking, if someone is suffering, so there's two thoughts I'm having is if someone is suffering or experiencing an injustice, how should Christians respond to that person is the first part. And then also how should the church community as a whole then also respond to that person or that situation?
Ingrid Faro (49:43.822)
Yeah, first as an individual to, I know we'll all agree we need to learn to listen well. And then also listen prayerfully and recognize our own limits when somebody comes because sometimes we don't have the capacity to handle what they're doing. And then in those cases, the best thing we can do is to not say anything that's gonna cause more harm.
Caleb Gray (50:12.309)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (50:12.814)
You know, it's and and to know other people that we can bring them to people that so I always want to know who are some counselors or or safe people or you know in in my area that I can refer people to when it's beyond my capacity or help them find somebody if it's somebody in a different area and recognize my own limitations, my own capacity to carry others.
but being able to listen, hear people's stories without judging them, without reacting, you know, in a, you know, like, it's, as I've learned, yeah, yeah. And it's okay to, and it's okay to be like, like with my sister when she found out that I was being abused, to be angry, that's okay. I've had other people also, I remember hearing someone tell a story, there were a few of us around.
Caleb Gray (50:53.238)
surprised or, yeah.
Ingrid Faro (51:09.358)
And this was a man who was being abused by his wife, just doing horrible, horrible things to him. And he's talking about it in this group and I'm sitting there making this face and one of his good friends said, now I want you to look at her face. That's how you should be responding. And so it was like, because he's just like, well, yeah, and this happened again. And she called my employer and said this lie about me. And I'm like, what? So.
Caleb Gray (51:26.998)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (51:36.214)
Wow. Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (51:39.118)
Yeah, so sometimes we should respond just so that they know this is not OK. But but also you know another couple times people have called said I hate God, you know, and they're Christians and you know and there was a time when I would have been really uncomfortable was like well what happened? You know and and just let him talk, you know and and sometimes the but so it's again learning to listen well, find other people. But then we as a church also it it would be so helpful if every church created.
Caleb Gray (51:42.103)
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (51:57.142)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (52:08.142)
safe places, knew who safe people were, talked about evil, talked about suffering, talked about lament. 67 out of the 150 Psalms are lament Psalms. Some are individuals corporate. We need to lament. We need to hear lament. We need to talk about. We need to hear each other's stories more, both the hard ones and those that we've overcome. And have those places within, you know, within.
Caleb Gray (52:20.437)
Mm.
Ingrid Faro (52:37.262)
with other people that we can do that. So that's just a real quick, a little quick answer.
Caleb Gray (52:41.27)
Brilliant. Yeah, thank you. I think that's super helpful for us to be able to engage with. Because often we want to do something, we just don't know how. And I think the practicality of actually knowing, okay, well, it's more helpful to listen. It's probably more helpful to hold your tongue like you're saying. Sometimes you can say stupid things. I think if that thought
comes up, then you're probably better off holding your tongue than saying what you think may or may not be stupid or unhelpful. And yeah, just being able to know practically who are the great psychs, who are the great counselors, who are godly, loving men and women who we can direct these people to. And yeah, I think those are really helpful.
helpful things that you've said. Another thought as well is someone who's perhaps experienced abuse and suffering as a result of being in a context of faith, how would you respond to that or what advice do you have for that person?
Ingrid Faro (54:02.19)
Yeah. And it's, we know it's so common. I'm sure you see it a lot too. And I certainly was in that situation myself where I just, I could not go to church for a period of time. And so sometimes, you know, it's, I know there's more and more, you know, dinner church, house church, you know, small groups, small gatherings of people. And sometimes people need to, I, I encourage people to, if they're in a, in a church where abuse has happened.
They just, you know, unless the Lord really tells them to stay in, they're extremely strong. You know, you just don't want to.
stay there, it's probably not going to be healthy. But if they can just find other believers to at least fellowship with, you know, some have gone and will just go into another church just for the worship service or, you know, it's like each person, different situation. But but just being with a person, not judging them, because it's, you know, Jesus said, we're two or three are gathered there I am in the midst. So if somebody can find, you know, another one or two other people.
to meet with on a regular basis. I have some friends in those situations where we just talk once a week. And sometimes there'll be a little group of three of us. We'll get together on a regular basis and people who are hurting and not ready to go back to church. And giving time to heal from what happened and to process. But eventually, but to be working on...
Caleb Gray (55:29.784)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (55:39.15)
healing, you know, to be doing something to move toward healing because the worst thing is to get stuck in bitterness, resentment, unforgiveness.
And of course, forgiveness is also a word that's often really horribly misused. Somebody will be abused, they say, just forgive them. I'm like, what do you mean just forgive them? It's like, here, have a piece of candy. Here's a Kleenex, just forgive them. Do you know what it costs God to forgive us? The life of Jesus Christ. So don't pretend like this is something simple that doesn't have a cost. Forgiveness is a process also. So to help people go through that process of feeling what they feel.
Caleb Gray (55:53.624)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (56:03.0)
Yeah.
Ingrid Faro (56:17.55)
and walking through it, but moving toward healing.
Caleb Gray (56:17.753)
Yeah.
Brilliant. And yeah, I think that's so helpful as well, just to know as a, if you're in a church community as well, I don't know what the stats are in America, at least in Australia, it's around 11 or 12 % of people are experiencing or in the case of experiencing domestic violence. And so if you sort of look at a church, one in every hundred people that you encounter,
that this is an issue that is happening which is quite prevalent. So just being aware that, yeah, I think having that awareness that this suffering and this pain and this abuse is happening and as a community to be on the lookout, on the watch out for that and be able to surround and, yeah, envelop people in God's love I think is so important. So, yeah. Thanks so much for...
your amazing insight. The conversation has just been so delightful, Ingrid. Honestly, I've really enjoyed it and gleaned so much. I feel like there's so much more that we can chat about. I'd love to have another conversation as well. But before we finish off, if someone's wanting to find out more about yourself or the work you do, or even grab a copy of your book, Demystifying Evil, where would you direct them to?
Ingrid Faro (57:49.646)
Yeah, Demystifying Evil is in pretty much all the booksellers. It's certainly on Amazon. It's an InterVarsity Press book, but Amazon is sometimes the easiest. I have a website, real easy, ingridferro .com, and I've got some links to some of my videos and other things that I've written and worked on, as well as an Amazon link, but that's one in the US, so other places I have to go elsewhere. So it's both an ebook as well as paperback.
Caleb Gray (58:19.894)
Awesome. Yeah, great. Well, thanks again so much for carving out the time and having a conversation. And also thank you for being vulnerable with your own story. And I think you share so well and yeah, really just is the life of Jesus and his reconciling work. And it clearly comes from that place of lived experience and both.
Ingrid Faro (58:20.878)
Yeah, thank you.
