John-Mark Dyer
Key Takeaways
Social media can be a powerful tool for sharing faith.
Navigating divisive conversations online requires resilience.
Community plays a crucial role in spiritual growth.
Finding purpose involves engaging with the world around us.
Generational shifts in faith are evident in today's society.
Innovative approaches to discipleship are needed for Gen Z.
Authenticity in community fosters deeper connections.
Older generations can significantly impact younger believers.
Everyday life can be a form of worship.
Episode Transcript
Caleb Gray (00:01.041)
Welcome to the upside down people podcast, John Mark Dyer. I'm so glad to be having a conversation with you. How are going?
John-Mark Dyer (00:09.383)
I'm doing great. I'm excited to be talking to you as well.
Caleb Gray (00:13.886)
Yeah, I'm glad that that makes two of us. It's always could be an awkward. It could always be awkward if there's only one person excited about the conversation, which is usually going to be myself as as I reached out. But yeah, I'm glad you're looking forward to it as well.
John-Mark Dyer (00:31.042)
No, you guys seemed like you had a pretty interesting and thoughtful platform. So I think this will be fun.
Caleb Gray (00:39.315)
Awesome. Yeah, well, we, I think simply, I'm sure you would have seen, we love having gospel -centered conversations with people who love Jesus. And I suppose that's the core of it is the only criteria is like whether you love Jesus or not. And yeah, I hope that you love Jesus. Otherwise this conversation may be a bit awkward for yourself. Yeah, great. Well,
John-Mark Dyer (01:03.758)
We'll find out I guess, huh?
Caleb Gray (01:07.713)
For those listening or watching who may not know who John Mark is or what you do, maybe you can give a bit of background about yourself and what currently occupies your time.
John-Mark Dyer (01:22.158)
Yeah. Well, for the last 12 years, I have worked for an organization called Youth with a Mission. most people call it YWAM for short. essentially, we take college -age students who want to figure out their life, figure out their relationship with God, and we take them through a six -month program. In the first three months, it's all about knowing God. How do you study the Bible? How do you pray?
What does God expect out of your life? A lot of relational things, you whole list of topics you can cover in 12 weeks. And then we send them all over the world. We break them up into teams and they spend three months volunteering with churches, trying to share their faith with other people. And over that six months, it's a pretty transformative experience because
They're just challenged in so many different ways. know, they're experiencing cultures and uncomfortable situations and, oftentimes there's a couple people on the team that they don't really like or get along with. And so there's just so many opportunities for them to kind of get a microcosm of what it's like in the real world and how to have hard conversations and connect with people that see the world very differently than you. And...
Caleb Gray (02:50.179)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (02:51.982)
And so I've been with this program for the last 12 years. And so after 12 years, you kind of have heard a lot of different people teaching and your view of the world changes. And so I figured, why not start trying to share this kind of stuff on social media? And so I don't know exactly. Within the last year, I don't know, six, nine months maybe.
I started making content and sharing it on Instagram and just, you know, had quite a conviction about how important it is to have a biblical worldview and how that shapes how you live and how the impact that we're supposed to have in our communities. And then, you know, also trying to be effective in how we talk about Jesus to other people and just saw a lot of people struggling with that and thought, okay, why not?
Caleb Gray (03:30.107)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (03:50.094)
try to help them out a little bit. so, yeah, that's, and I think that's probably what you saw one of my reels or something. Yeah, so you kind of saw my current endeavor.
Caleb Gray (03:51.781)
Right. That's awesome.
Caleb Gray (03:58.374)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (04:03.314)
Yeah, well, that's exactly it. It was through one of your shorts or your reels. it was a really refreshing take, I would say, in terms of...
What's the... I think with social media, a lot of people fall into the trap of entertainment and trying to entertain people. Not that that's wrong or evil or bad or anything like that. But that's just a constant sort of underlying message is if we don't have an entertaining form of content, then we can't really bring it across a helpful message with it as well.
I think what I found refreshing about yours is it was so gospel centered, but it wasn't like a weird off -putting or things like that. It was just a very curious, inquisitive approach, the way you'd like ask a question and then give an answer. I found that really insightful and great as well, because it's sort of like you demonstrated that internal narrative that's maybe going on in some people's thoughts.
John-Mark Dyer (05:02.211)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (05:14.706)
thought life, I suppose.
John-Mark Dyer (05:17.314)
Yeah, if you scroll back little ways, you can kind of see when I got started. I really didn't know my style or what was going to work. And so you can see me fumbling around a little bit trying to figure out what to do. And it wasn't having much success. And then it was actually one of my favorite guys on TikTok. He would do these kind of funny skits with himself. And.
Caleb Gray (05:31.05)
You
John-Mark Dyer (05:45.388)
And I thought, why don't I try one of these things? And it just, everything clicked. was like I was able to kind of navigate some of these tricky conversations and ideas. And it just, it landed and then, you know, that's when I had my first real, have any sort of real traction. And I thought, okay, this is probably the direction I need to go for, at least for a little while. And so it's been really fun to try to articulate.
you know, some of these lessons that have really impacted me. And then, and then it's really interesting to see how people respond. And you you hit these little pockets of resistance where people are like, what? Like, no, you know, you can't share the gospel. That's not the real gospel. Or, you know, I did one about, you know, a Christian's role in, in government and, being involved in the political process. And man, so many people.
Caleb Gray (06:23.177)
Yeah, I could imagine.
John-Mark Dyer (06:44.888)
to my surprise were just like, Christians shouldn't have anything to do with government or politics. And I was like, man, this was really eye -opening to see how people are responding. And I guess it's, you never really know if you're getting an honest sample of the population, or am I just getting a bunch of the people that are way out on the fringes and how they think, or is this representative of?
Caleb Gray (07:05.823)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (07:13.004)
you know our generation and how they think but luckily there's a lot of encouraging comments too so that kind of helps me know I'm in the right in the right direction
Caleb Gray (07:19.059)
that's great.
How do you deal with that in terms of the, I suppose when you put something out there and it can be divisive or unexpectedly divisive and you sort of have to deal with negative feedback or negative comments or just really people just spewing their opinions?
John-Mark Dyer (07:46.498)
Yeah, you know, there's always a moment of kind of a little bit of trepidation because you're like, did I actually say something that was off? Like, did I not think deeply enough about what my words meant? But generally, if I have a pretty strong conviction about my view, I feel pretty resolute and it doesn't really bother me because
Caleb Gray (08:00.568)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (08:16.558)
A lot of these ideas that I'm sharing, they're not necessarily my ideas that I came up with. I'm listening to some of the most respected teachers around me or in my sphere. And so I think there's a lot of safety in that, where I'm like, well, if they disagree with him, I think they're probably wrong. And so a lot of times, I'm kind of like, OK, did I mess up in articulating that? Did I say something that I didn't mean?
Caleb Gray (08:28.823)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (08:46.144)
in intention. But yeah, a lot of times I'm able to kind of see, this person maybe hasn't thought too deeply about this subject. And so it's kind of fun in the comments to try to engage with some people and change their mind. And every once in a while, some people are just trolls. And you can kind of have fun with them and say some ridiculous things back.
But there's generally some people that are like, well, I haven't thought about it this way. A lot of people don't respond, but it's kind of fun to believe at least that I'm changing a lot of haters' minds out there.
Caleb Gray (09:27.908)
Yeah, that's awesome. So you do take a moment in your day to respond to all sorts of different comments and thoughts.
John-Mark Dyer (09:39.862)
Yeah, mean, one, think, doesn't it help the algorithm? So I'm like, this will just help it go further, more. And then maybe the more altruistic side of myself, I'm thinking, OK, I really do want to help these people. And I've actually been surprised at some of the DMs, just the genuine hunger and vulnerability that people have. Now, maybe that's a bad sign. I'm like.
Caleb Gray (09:44.069)
true
Caleb Gray (09:53.594)
Awesome.
John-Mark Dyer (10:07.262)
This random stranger on Instagram is the only person you have to reach out and ask for advice. You know, don't have any other people in your life that you can reach out to, but, you know, genuinely there's some people that are reaching out asking for some serious advice and that's, you know, it's pretty cool.
Caleb Gray (10:11.675)
Right.
Caleb Gray (10:29.67)
Yeah, that is really fascinating. I suppose there's two sides, like you're saying. It is sad in a way that the question to be asked is, what's the community environment that they're currently in that doesn't allow or encourage the questions that they're asking? So that's, I suppose, the sad side of it. But then I suppose the positive side is like,
John-Mark Dyer (10:47.747)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (10:55.525)
social media does provide a means for people who are in perhaps not the greatest circumstance to reach out to someone who is genuine like yourself and has a gospel centered worldview and is going to respond from that that mean and actually engage with that. That's a
John-Mark Dyer (11:15.17)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, at least for now, you know, I am, as you grow in the platform, I'm kind of like, how am I going to keep up with all these? I did something, I was researching something about curse words and doing it in my stories yesterday. And the amount of DMs that came through, was like, holy cow, you know, how am going to keep up with this? And I'm by no means a very like big,
Caleb Gray (11:25.586)
How do you maintain that?
John-Mark Dyer (11:43.534)
influencer yet, you know, I just have, you know, I'm in the 30 ,000s. So these people with 500 ,000 million followers, I don't know how they do it.
Caleb Gray (11:53.789)
Yeah, yeah, it's sort of, I suppose it becomes like, yeah, I wouldn't have a have a clue how they do it if they do still engage or if there's like, really strict boundaries that have to put in place for themselves, I could imagine as well. Otherwise, it could just get overwhelming, right?
John-Mark Dyer (12:05.41)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (12:13.036)
Yeah, yeah, I would imagine they have to come up with some different way to engage, but we'll figure that out when I get there, right?
Caleb Gray (12:21.746)
Yeah, is that the so what's the dream I suppose or the hope in terms of what you're doing and what you want to do with it?
John-Mark Dyer (12:31.372)
Yeah. Well, I, I listened to a lot of Jordan Peterson and so he has provoked me this idea that you have a moral obligation to be everything that you have potential to be. that has really provoked me and said, okay, how do I approach this? Not with a casual attitude, but if I'm going to be a force for good, if I'm going to be salt and light, I need to really
approach this with excellence and kind of a vision on how can I be the best and biggest influence that maybe God would allow me to be. And I don't really have a specific number in mind about what success looks like because I think, you know, when I started this, just, realized, okay, no matter how many people respond, I want to do a good job at vocalizing the
the world view and these important lessons. And so I think a lot of it, at least for now, is just.
My success is like, am I developing my mind? Am I studying? Like, do I know the Bible? Am I continuing to be out there sharing the gospel so that I'm, one of YWAM's values is do first and then teach. And so that is deeply inside of me is like, I don't wanna just be this academic person that shares these ideas. I wanna be living this so I have real authority. And.
John-Mark Dyer (14:06.956)
And so I think that's a lot of where my mindset is right now, is how do I develop my own thinking and expertise so that when people come to me with answers, I have something substantial to say.
Caleb Gray (14:21.482)
Yeah, that's brilliant. So you mentioned before, in terms of something you noticed with your generation, what generation are you a part of, by the way? Okay, millennial. Yeah, yeah, nice.
John-Mark Dyer (14:31.662)
I'm 38, so I'm squarely in the millennial category. for the last 10 years, I've been working with young people. I would say the majority of my friends right now are Gen Z, just because that's what the YWAM environment looks like. And so I think I am baptized in their culture quite a bit.
Caleb Gray (14:49.066)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (14:58.922)
Yeah, well, clearly as well, because the content and the material that you're engaging with is very much that generation, sort of Gen Z, Gen Alpha. And that's why also in terms of what like really drew me to it was because it was so different to what else is out there. I mean, you'd know so much better than I would. It just seemed a lot different and like
again that that gospel centrality that that came through I thought was great and I think that's what like the younger generation and millennials as well are craving. One of the reasons I started this podcast is just noticing for for my generation I'm in that millennial bracket as well as there's this separation between like your faith and your life so what you do
outside of church or outside of your home, whether it's like work or playing sport or whatever it may be, it's sort of this wrestle with like my faith is very much private and I can't, I don't really know how to be true to that whole side of my identity. And a big part of that I suppose is just conversation. So people aren't
John-Mark Dyer (16:20.333)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (16:24.79)
able to engage with their faith in conversations in everyday life and just how it informs different views that they may have in the world. And I think that's something that you're doing in that short form content, which is so helpful. And another fascinating thing as well is I'm not sure how it is like in America or in Hawaii, but there's been this massive exodus of
Millennials and then Gen Zs from the church over the past recent years. So is that something that's happening over, is something that you've seen even within Waiwaiamai, suppose, there, have you noticed there's been a shift in people's faith or their identity in faith?
John-Mark Dyer (17:17.614)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you saw it in millennials. Like I noticed that my friends that stopped going to church and kind of a lot of deconstruction and dissatisfaction and I don't know, maybe they were seeing real hypocrisy in the church and just said that doesn't appeal to me. But they tended to kind of, it seemed like go towards
more of a materialistic world view or agnostic, like I don't know what to think and we just need to love each other. Where it seems like Gen Z, for the most part, they kind of embrace this spiritual worldview that says, know that we're not just atoms in matter. I don't have a problem believing there's angels and demons. But I think they're
they're also looking for answers from, you know, I don't know, more new age movements and, and, and kind of probably pretty skeptical about the, how the traditional church would tell them, hey, here are the rules on engaging in the spiritual, spiritual world. So it seems like there's a real openness to spirituality, but they, it's like,
John-Mark Dyer (18:42.018)
Well, either want, they want like a, there is spiritual hunger, but they want to hear it in a language that is a little bit different than traditional like church language. think they really, it seems like they resonate, like they want to be spoken to very directly, raw, and.
Caleb Gray (18:54.811)
Right.
Caleb Gray (19:01.584)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (19:05.124)
that something that you find churches struggle with or is it something that like they need to maybe empower some younger generation to have a voice or what what what do you think the the answer is to that?
John-Mark Dyer (19:26.178)
I mean, I by no means have my pulse on like the whole church and how they're responding to it. You know, it seems like there are a lot of churches that recognize, you know, these trends and there's a lot of groups that are doing research and saying, hey, we need to speak to Gen Z in a different way and are trying to respond to it. But yeah, I mean, there's...
Caleb Gray (19:30.087)
I know.
John-Mark Dyer (19:54.294)
It almost seems like there's something in Gen Z that wants some hardcore version of discipleship in Christianity. They don't want just the pretty, like go to church on Sunday, a small group once a week. Like it's not real or gritty or all in enough. And maybe that's because there's a sense of where do I get my meaning, my purpose, my community. And so I kind of have the feeling I've been, well I listen,
Caleb Gray (20:10.707)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (20:23.15)
Today I was listening to John, I mean it was an old podcast, but it was between John Mark Comer and John Tyson. And they were talking about spiritual formation and how do we, what discipleship tools are we gonna offer young people? And it just, it kind of really provoked me, because one of our young leaders sent it to me. And so, you if it's on his mind and this is something burning in this young 20 year old's heart and saying like, there's something in this that's really gripping me.
Caleb Gray (20:50.355)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (20:52.94)
I'm kind of paying attention and saying, if this message is resonating, we should pay attention. And so I sent the video to one of the leaders that I work with. And I was like, I just wonder, is what we're doing and what we're offering, is it working? Or is there a new tool, a new method that Gen Z needs? Because it just, it.
Caleb Gray (20:55.325)
What is this?
Caleb Gray (21:00.264)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (21:18.688)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (21:21.974)
I don't know, I'm just looking at at least America and saying, whatever we're doing, it's not gonna meet the need. Like if we just stay status quo, there's no way there's any hope. You know, we have to do something radically different and experiment and try until we see something light these young people up and see them starting to live that radical life that Jesus called us into. So.
But I am the type of person that's an innovator and I like to experiment and try new things. so, I mean, one thing that we're trying is, you we train about six or seven hundred students a year. And a lot of them, most of them, they feel like, okay, international missions, that's not my calling. I know I'm supposed to go back home to university or to work, know, something like that.
But we're saying, I wonder if we can activate those guys to lead youth movements in their home city, to have living rooms of discipleship where it's Bible study, prayer, interceding for their city, and then going out and doing evangelism. So we're trying different things to take risks. We're calling them house parties. We did one in Nashville, and we got one in Tacoma, Washington in September.
Caleb Gray (22:46.624)
That's awesome. What do they look like?
John-Mark Dyer (22:50.758)
Well, you we I well I went to a conference and I was just like no young person wants to go to a conference because it's corporate It's like it just doesn't it I don't think it appeals to Gen Z like they really want Yeah, they want like the gritty family Feel and so we thought okay scrap doing it in a church Scrap doing it anywhere professional. Let's get in a house because it's relational. It's over food
Caleb Gray (23:03.266)
It's very clean and clinical, yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (23:18.892)
And so we rented a huge Airbnb. It was way more expensive than I expected. But I raised the money, praise God. And we just got everybody in there. And we fed them meals and then we did our training. But we basically did everything and modeled everything that we wanted them to multiply. So we said, if we're going to do an evangelism night,
Caleb Gray (23:24.471)
Ha
John-Mark Dyer (23:47.746)
Okay, Saturday night, we're all gonna go down to Broadway in Nashville and all do it together so that everyone knows like this is how you go as a big group, do evangelism, know, hear testimonies at the end, you know, that whole thing. We're gonna demonstrate what it looks like to preach a message in your living room, how to do worship, how to do a training. And then we basically kind of charged them all and said, okay, now it's your turn. Like here, you got the training, now go do it and multiply it and.
It's cool. There's, I mean, there's a group in Ohio, there's a guy in Idaho, there's some Canadians that came. And, you know, the hope is could we in every city across America and then into the world start multiplying these youth movements that are
you know, spiritual formation, teaching people about the importance of worldview and how to study the Bible and doing something with their faith and going out every week and sharing it. I mean, it could just have such an impact for a young person to see a vibrant Christian community that's not like a program. That's kind of like, you know, if you see some person your age just absolutely burning for Jesus,
Caleb Gray (24:56.336)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (25:04.236)
that it messes with you. You're like, I had no idea that that was possible. If you grew up in kind of more of just a moderate church family, which I totally believe in and you need it. And I think that's what these youth movements eventually could evolve into. But there needs to be something dynamic for young people to see that's messy and gritty.
Caleb Gray (25:08.196)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (25:21.114)
Right.
Caleb Gray (25:27.133)
Yeah, and that sort of authenticity, it's authentic to the human experience as well. think a recent example, or like, I'm sure you would know Forrest Frank, how he's just blown up very much so recently. And I think just hearing what you're sharing about, that's something that I feel like he examples really well is that sense of
John-Mark Dyer (25:39.523)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (25:54.392)
not trying to put on a performance or a show, it's just that grittiness of human experience, his relationship with God, his relationship with his family or his child and just how he is really enjoying the journey as well. think that's something that's, yeah, I think if people see someone enjoying their relationship with God,
it makes such a huge, it shifts something in the heart. Something I've noticed is like there hasn't been a huge presence of older people. When I say old people, I'm like, I'm thinking people who are retired and they sort of done their time, but that are really passionate for God either.
John-Mark Dyer (26:25.763)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (26:50.204)
And I think maybe there's also a disconnect between people leaving the church because there's this, like you're saying, there's this lack of authenticity. It's like, well, you get to a certain age and it's like Jesus doesn't mean anything to you anymore. Like, I don't want to be a part of that.
John-Mark Dyer (27:07.714)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting conversation because it does feel like...
the ways that I connect with Jesus now feel quite different than when I did at 21. And, you know, there was something so appealing that I, and something I really needed to get into a room full of people like yelling and shouting and just being very emotional, like getting their heart into it. and you know, I could,
Caleb Gray (27:26.514)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (27:47.594)
sing the same choruses over and over and over. And now I kind of feel like what is at least scratching the itch in my soul is something a bit more contemplative and thoughtful. And I mean, I need those emotional moments too. But yeah, I wonder, you know, what a by the time I'm in my eighties, what it's going to look like to connect with Jesus. But I will say I do know
that those, I mean, my grandpa's an example, Lauren and Darlene Cunningham, who founded YWAM, you know, they're taking risks to follow Lorde into their 80s, and that has always really provoked me. Like my grandpa, I just interviewed him on my podcast, and in the last couple years, he's talked to like 500 people, and he just, he goes to the grocery store or wherever he's at, and he's like, I could talk to two or three people a day, and I just ask them their name, and I.
you know, start a conversation and I, and he's like, you know, maybe like there was this couple at a grocery store. They cashier and a bagger. They were dating this young, young couple in their twenties. And over a year he got to know them and then he invited him. He's like, why don't you guys come over for a meal? Cooked him a meal, shared the gospel and they both gave their life to Jesus. And I was like, my 88 year old grandpa is like out on the front lines.
Caleb Gray (29:07.764)
Wow, that's awesome. That is so good.
John-Mark Dyer (29:16.076)
like giving it his guts sharing Jesus. And I was like, that is so provoking because I, you know, I'll run in and out of Target so fast and not think about any of the people I run into. And, know, so it's provoking me like, okay, I stop and see the people around me. And so we need more people like that that are in their 80s and authentically pursuing Jesus.
Caleb Gray (29:33.011)
Right.
Yeah,
Caleb Gray (29:41.162)
Yeah, and I think that's what it is, is like hearing those stories is so encouraging to be like, well, in terms of our relationship with Jesus keeps growing and we keep maturing as we walk with Him. But it doesn't mean, I think like if you meet an 80 year old who's known Jesus for like 50 years or however long of their life and they
have this hardness to them and they don't want to, they don't have time to engage in conversation or they don't have time to, yeah, there's just like a hard outer shell. I feel like that's a very different relationship to that example you gave of your grandpa is like, well, there's like a softness, there's that, wow, like a tenderness of Jesus. It's that example, like, feels like
This feels like what Jesus would be doing. It feels like Jesus has captured this man's heart or this lady's heart. And that's something that I think, yeah, I reckon there's a space for that encouragement in the church as well. that would, I do reckon that would help the younger generations as well, inspire them and encourage them and just show them that like,
faith is real, it's something that isn't this set of rules that sort of restrict you but it adds liberty and freedom and joy and love into your everyday life.
John-Mark Dyer (31:20.728)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I look at my grandpa, I look at Lauren and Darlene, and I said, if I can be like that in my 80s, I've won. That's success. To be tender -hearted, in love with Jesus, happy, that's not easy.
Caleb Gray (31:30.558)
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (31:38.602)
No, it's not. I was at a conference a couple years back and I don't know, have you heard of Ray Ortland? So his son recently wrote a book called Gentle and Lowly. It's a great book. But Ray is like a 75 year old man and in this conference he is talking about just the relationship he has with his son's
John-Mark Dyer (31:47.918)
Mm
Caleb Gray (32:06.538)
And then he spoke of the relationship he had with his father. And he was just talking about, so it's a 75 year old man talking about how his father would go to his ball games as a teenager and just be the loudest one cheering at his games, but then also at practice and what that did to him. And I was like, man, if, if.
we can capture what it is like to enjoy our community and enjoy people around us. How beautiful of a picture would that be for, or create a space for people to encounter Jesus.
John-Mark Dyer (32:38.402)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (32:46.914)
Yeah, I mean that, that it runs so counter to what our generation is hearing. You everybody's like, you're successful if you have this many people on Instagram and you're making this much money. and so it's, it's so, it seems backwards to focus on, Hey, this is just focus on the people around you and community. And,
Caleb Gray (32:55.199)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (33:17.792)
And so, but I had this very powerful moment. In the last year, my grandma and my grandfather on my mom's side, they died. by the world standards, didn't, they pretty much stayed in Illinois their whole life. They didn't travel the world or run any huge businesses or anything like that. And.
John-Mark Dyer (33:48.034)
But I just thought about how much of an impact that they had in my life. Hold on one second. I just had people walk into the room. Sorry, guys. I'm recording a podcast.
Caleb Gray (33:55.676)
No worries.
Caleb Gray (34:02.314)
The joys of YWAB.
John-Mark Dyer (34:04.278)
It's a studio room and they store stuff in the room.
Caleb Gray (34:10.066)
No, that's all good. could see, I could hear something, but then I could also see your attention, attention trying to capture it. I totally get that. That's all good.
John-Mark Dyer (34:13.682)
I grew this like...
I know, my concentration, was like, man, it's going. So I think they were just moving a few things.
Caleb Gray (34:26.658)
No worries.
John-Mark Dyer (34:32.649)
There's a film school here on the campus, so they are shooting their short films and things like that. But they store all their equipment in the same room. And so I guess they must be getting back from a shoot or something.
Caleb Gray (34:48.764)
Nice. Do you have much involvement in that school?
John-Mark Dyer (34:54.647)
No, brother -in -law he works with that school. Okay.
Caleb Gray (35:02.186)
That's all good carry on
John-Mark Dyer (35:05.679)
man. Okay, so.
John-Mark Dyer (35:12.822)
Okay, so I'm backtracking, just thinking about how the message being given to Gen Z is you are successful through all these markers, your finances, your influence, your power. But what's really interesting, you can tell, it just seems ubiquitous. Gen Z is so hungry for community. that's building a family and investing in the people around you, that's...
That's what their heart is longing for. But everything in culture is saying, you know, build your career. Don't focus on family and kids. And it's just, it's like so backwards and upside down. And I was thinking about my mom's grandparents. We called them Mimi and Papa. And they lived in this kind of small, these small towns in Illinois their whole life. And they both passed away two years ago or something like that. And being at their funerals, I just.
you know, reflecting on the deep impact that they had on my life. And I was like, my entire life was shaped by these two people, but they, you know, by, by Gen Z standards, you know, Instagram, how much money they made, did they travel the world? You know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't check the box for like success, but as far as like building tradition and family and community and putting values in us, you know, I was like, my whole world.
Caleb Gray (36:27.881)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (36:40.918)
was shaped by that. And so that kind of helped me see the real deep value for community and family and saying, we can't ignore how important that is in our, as we write up these things that say this is where our meaning and purpose come from.
Caleb Gray (37:00.84)
Yeah, man, it's so funny you say that because I recently and still am currently doing some research in terms, in to find out particularly here in Perth what Christians need to enjoy their life or what they want to enjoy their life and what fears and desires they have and what questions they're asking, how the Gospel answers those questions. And I was looking at
some of and analyzing some of the data a couple of days ago and I'd say the the top two things that particularly Millennials and Gen Z's are asking are that like all value is community saying we need community to enjoy life we need community to have this sense of
calling or fulfillment. And then the other interesting one as well was time as well. So time was another thing that came out as like we don't feel like we have time to enjoy the things that we wanting to enjoy, which was just a fascinating side thing. But that community was so like prevalent. It was like it outnumbered all the other responses.
It's just that desire to be in relationship. But then, like you're saying, it's the opposite of culture, where the culture here in Australia is very much individualistic. So it's you need to live your best life. You do what's on your heart. Any sacrifice that you make isn't going to give you fulfillment if it's not
I sacrifice someone else's making for you. So it's very fascinating how there's this desire of community and then it's sort of counterbalanced by this cultural stream that people are stuck in where it's individualistic and self -serving. But people are wanting to get out the stream to community but just don't know how.
John-Mark Dyer (39:21.603)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (39:22.674)
What's your thoughts on the how, suppose? How do we engage in this culture to show people that there's a space where they can have this fine community, fine relationship?
John-Mark Dyer (39:41.964)
Yeah. It's really interesting you bring that up because that's one of those things that John Tyson was talking about this morning on that podcast I listened to. And he was just talking about how all these things are breaking down, know, everything that people were looking for for identity and meaning and purpose, whether that was capitalism or secularism or, you know, any of the isms that they kind of would bind theirself to. And they were both
Caleb Gray (40:04.871)
is hims.
John-Mark Dyer (40:10.232)
pointing to Bonhoeffer and how important that little community out, I think it was way out in the wilderness or something, but he got these group of, I think, men together and kind of said, we're gonna do something quite counter -cultural, but it's gonna be deep, deep formation, it's gonna be in community, and it's for the purpose of,
being countercultural. I haven't read this book, my buddy read this book. It's a Rodney Stark book, something about civilizations. And it was talking about how Christianity grew. It was like 300%, maybe every year. In Rome, the early church grew so fast. part of it was just because of the
Caleb Gray (41:06.207)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (41:10.848)
It wasn't necessarily all evangelism. It was just the fact that how Christians lived, you know, they didn't kill their babies. They took care of the sick when plagues came through. They had that tight community and that was one thing that really drew people in. And so, you know, in some sense, it's not a new answer because it's been happening since the first century church, but.
Caleb Gray (41:28.616)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (41:40.878)
We it definitely seems like at least in the West we kind of embrace that individualistic Christianity where you know we put it in the box where we go on Sunday. We have a small group on Wednesday, but I'm living my own life Where one thing I really liked about YWAM? was you get thrown into this community and it's not like You go to your job, then you come home and spend the rest of your day doing your individual life with the people that you want
Caleb Gray (41:54.569)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (42:09.92)
It's like I'm thrown in here and my work, my life, my friends, they're all integrated. And I think that's, that's something that's so appealing. It was appealing to me and I kind of feel like there's something in that that that's what every heart craves for. It's like to be those like ride or die group of people. It's like we are bound together on a mission and we have these core values and principles that we've all said yes to.
Caleb Gray (42:26.516)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (42:39.414)
you know, those biblical truths, worldview. And then the reason why we come together is to expand the kingdom of God. And so that gives your life a lot of meaning and purpose when you start to see, I see how my gift contributes to this mission, to this community. And so my gut is telling me that
this generation wants, they saw the product that the Western Church built, the Sunday Christianity, and they said, it's not doing it for me. I want something deeper, more integrated, where these are the people I'm rolling with. Because it's not like I'm finding community in these other places, because my worldview is so different than the people I'm surrounded with. And.
Caleb Gray (43:15.667)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (43:34.496)
And so, you know, that's going to look so much different whether you're a Y -whammer versus somebody in corporate America. So don't necessarily, I don't know the answers. I think there's something in this house party that I'm excited about where, you know, these young people, maybe it's, I don't know, community living. People have been trying to do community living for so long, but then you have kids and it's like, well, get out of my house.
Caleb Gray (43:59.743)
You
Yeah. Kids go to sleep.
John-Mark Dyer (44:04.046)
I mean it works in YWAM. I live in a community house. I've got eight people in my house. All the YWAM families have people living with them and young people love that. And so maybe we need more of that in our churches. But it's our whole system of suburban living isn't necessarily built for that.
Caleb Gray (44:08.798)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (44:15.572)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (44:27.562)
I don't know, it's gonna be interesting to see how it plays out because I think if the culture becomes more and more anti -Christian, then Christians are gonna have to bind together more and that's gonna be the community that everybody's longing for and then it'll flourish and grow and influence again. So.
Caleb Gray (44:31.188)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (44:44.52)
Yeah, yeah, there is something so beautiful about that community living. think people, when you get kids and, or maybe it's a personality type as well, I'm not too sure. I'm like processing my thoughts. like, well, I know people who have not liked community living and then they've had kids and they're so thankful they're not in it. But in terms of I'm like, I've always idolized it like
in the sense of, let's just find a farm somewhere next to the coast and like, everyone just move down there, let's just live off the land, love each other, love the local community around us and just do life together. Like, that's just so appealing to me.
John-Mark Dyer (45:19.683)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (45:30.412)
Yeah, isn't it so interesting that that is so appealing to our generation? That's kind of like a sign of where we're at right now. But I will say, just on the community side of things, there's so much, the family that I lived with, they were so grateful to have a bunch of these aunts and uncles help raise their kids and free babysitting and.
Caleb Gray (45:39.114)
Yeah
John-Mark Dyer (45:59.39)
helping with chores and dishes and things like that. So there's a cost to it, for sure. But I would say a lot of people way underestimate the benefits by embracing some of the awkwardness, for sure, of community living. It is unusual, but it was one of the great things that formed me. And so I am a big believer in it, even with kids.
Caleb Gray (46:27.786)
100%. I'm so, so on board. think even just getting back to that whole idea of the table and sharing meals together and being able to bring people into your home, I think so important. Because we do live such individual lives and we try and protect our space and protect our time. When I think...
John-Mark Dyer (46:38.179)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (46:55.004)
that's where lot of ministry and lot of life's done is allowing people to come into your space or going into other people's space. Like I just think of how much of Jesus' ministry was done around a table and then how he invited himself over as well to other people's houses. If he didn't have a place it's like it was just yeah you do I love that well
John-Mark Dyer (47:16.012)
Yeah, I like that move. I use that.
John-Mark Dyer (47:21.327)
for sure.
Caleb Gray (47:22.566)
Yeah, if you're if you're ever coming over this way, feel free to do that with myself. Yeah, but I think that is going back to that idea of authenticity and and what Gen Z may be be craving. I think it lives in that place of community because you it's difficult to hide like what's so say if you have kids, for example, it's
John-Mark Dyer (47:26.478)
Okay, 100%.
Caleb Gray (47:52.678)
it's easy in a way to turn up on Sunday or even not turn up on Sunday when the kids are having a bad, bad day. But when you're living in a space of community or you have people over and you see the messiness of the house or you see the kids throwing a tantrum and, there's that engagement. It's, it's awkward. Yeah, a hundred percent. But there's something so like necessary to be able to be
rubbing shoulders with that because that's what life is. It's not this highlight reel of your life. It's the mundane moments of every day. And I think those mundane moments add up to something that people are like, this is what I want to live for. I want to be able to be a part of a community that embraces one another, that sees your flaws and yet
still are willing to engage like that whole idea of acceptance and I'm valued no matter no matter what I've done I read a Tim Keller quote just recently it was something something along the lines of even if you're a thousand times worse than you currently are today God's love for you would like remain the same or his his grace would be
be endless, something along those lines. I butchered it, but the heart's there that's like we see ourselves and we often condemn ourselves because we're not good enough. And there's just this like idea that God just wants to be in relationship with us. We don't need to fix ourselves. Let him do that as we journey with him. And I think you really find that
worked out in community,
John-Mark Dyer (49:50.956)
Yeah, yeah, it definitely provides accountability. Like, are you living the life that you say that you're living? And I, you know, I remember some of the most powerful moments in my early years of YWAM were when there's this couple, Blake and Shannon, and Blake has always been, his humility has been, has really marked me. And to see him, you know, come to us and say,
Hey, I totally blew up. I didn't handle that well with Shannon or the kids. it was just, those were the moments that I really remember. His humility in saying like, whoa, I want to be like that. We're all going to have moments where we screw up. But to have the humility and say, hey, I know I signed up for a higher standard and.
you know, would you forgive me? This is, you know, I want to get back towards aiming at the proper center, which wasn't how I reacted last night. And so, yeah, I've always thought that that one of the one of the great things about community living was the the accountability and and just the amount it provokes you. You know, the people I'm around like. If I was living by myself,
Caleb Gray (51:14.292)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (51:19.83)
you know, your imagination only goes so far about what's possible. But then all of a sudden you have these other people in your life and, you know, whether it's the discipline that they bring to their personal health and fitness or how they spend time with the Lord, all of a sudden it's like, whoa, I didn't even, I never thought that was possible. But it provokes me and say, whoa, maybe I have, my limits are larger than I thought.
Caleb Gray (51:41.246)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (51:46.876)
I love that. Yeah, that's, that's so true. CS Lewis has this like wonderful idea of friendship and of just Christ and how people around you and friends around you highlight things in firstly in Jesus that you wouldn't see just being on your own. And that sort of plays into the idea that we need one another like to be in relationship with Jesus. It's not this isolated faith.
John-Mark Dyer (52:14.968)
Yeah. Yeah.
Caleb Gray (52:16.762)
And then the other side is they bring out things in yourself as well that you didn't know were there. So he talks about it. If you've read Four Loves, he says when one of his friends died, it wasn't just a loss of their friend, but there was a death in each one of them. Because, for example, if myself and you were good friends and you died, then it's like your presence
brings something out of myself, it brings an aspect out of myself, that without you there, it just that would never come to light and never come to being. And it's this idea of community just adds so much value to life. So I'm always thinking about that thought that he sort of shares is just like, well, that is so profound and so beautiful. And it it encourages me to
John-Mark Dyer (52:47.854)
Wow. Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (52:54.286)
Whoa, that's profound.
Caleb Gray (53:15.066)
engage instead of like withdraw because it's like well I want to I want to discover more of Jesus and and learn more about him and see these different aspects of him he's not one dimensional and the way you see him will be different to the way I see him and then also I want to see what he's doing in my life that I might not know of that others bring out in in myself as well so
I really love what you're saying with that idea of how important community is.
John-Mark Dyer (53:51.086)
Yeah, yeah, it's, it has definitely been one of the main things that has formed me over the last 12 years. And often, you know, for a long time, I bemoaned, like, I'm like, man, I'm in my 30s. I'm still sleeping in a bunk bed. Like, what the heck? But you know, that that's one of the was one of the prices. But then I was like, at the end of the day, everything that I'm gaining from this far outweighs, you know,
Caleb Gray (54:01.769)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (54:19.98)
what kind of a bed I sleep in, you know.
Caleb Gray (54:21.714)
Right, yeah, I love that. And this question may be far left field, but I'm going to ask it anyway, so I'm happy to cut it out if you... But have you chosen to live a single life? Is that something you've chosen?
John-Mark Dyer (54:31.308)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (54:40.214)
well that, that, that's, that's an interesting way to word it because, you know, I definitely, I definitely think that, I have made choices and, and, and being single is not somebody else's fault. You know, I think it's, it's mine, but no, I would say the easy answer is no, I would love, love to be married and, you know, there's a number of reasons.
that I have unpacked over the last couple years of why my relationships in the past have not been successful. But yeah, it's interesting. There's plenty of willing blindness in there or just immaturity where you're like, I had no idea that that was an issue. But speaking, going back to social media, I think it was an Australian guy. And he had some.
one of his reels or something was going back and forth with himself, but talking about symptoms of somebody with an avoidant attachment. And somebody had sent me this book on attachment theory. I looked at it. I was like, my gosh, he's just reading my mail right now. So yeah, mean, of it was some of the people that I tried dating early on, was.
a combination of me not being in the right place and then her not being in the right place and then you know I at the end of the day who knows maybe God really has had a purpose in it all so it's some some strange combination of my issues God's will and hopefully you know one of these days is gonna get resolved I would love to start a family
Caleb Gray (56:33.754)
Awesome. Yeah. Well, it's I think it also ties into that that that question that so many people I think everyone asks is like purpose and that finding people find their try to find their identity in relationships or in finance or in their career. And I think it's it sounds like the journey that you're on is you've found your
John-Mark Dyer (56:52.483)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (57:03.388)
relationship or not your relationship your identity and your purpose in following Christ which that's I suppose that's something that is so encouraging what would you say it means particularly or how does finding your purpose look in the generation that you come from and the generation that you're working with
John-Mark Dyer (57:10.381)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (57:33.314)
Yeah. I mean, I think I think I was a very, still quite an ambitious person. And so I had a lot of, I pulled a lot of meaning and purpose from the work that I did to serve and to build YWAM here. And I think in a lot of ways that was really healthy and good. And it's filled, I mean, my days have been filled with incredible relationships and friendships and
work that really is changing people's lives. And I think that that's, that's where you're supposed to find some of your purpose and meaning is how do you contribute to the community that God has called you to be a part of and what part do you play in the mission that that community like, why does that community exist and how do you help further that? But Jordan Peterson was the one that kind of opened my eyes to
You know, your career is one part of it, but then your marriage and your family, your kids, you know, that's gonna be a huge part of your purpose and your life's calling. I think I was a bit blind to that, and I think I did undervalue how significant that was. And so there was, you know, being single for this long, you know, it's quite a...
Lots of ups and downs and you know, there was a season where I didn't think about it or care about it at all because I was like driven I wanted to build and you know lead teams and grow and leadership and influence and things like that and You know that really drove me and Then kind of having the realization that wow now I'm a lot older than I was expecting to be single and then just the implications of what that meant for you know raising a family and
how, you know, what marriage is gonna be like. And so for a little while I had to wrestle with that and just maybe the grief of that or just basically accepting this is the road that I'm on or have chosen and.
John-Mark Dyer (59:51.734)
And then you get to a place where you're like, okay, you know what? I have to just accept that this is where I am. you know, it's not the story that I thought that I would have, but just, you know, and then getting to a place where I'm like, no, if you know, trusting, if God's allowed me to be in this situation, there must be good, you know, I have to call it good, you know, because he can, he can make it good. And so I don't know the acceptance phase. And so I guess I, you know, now when I talk to
Caleb Gray (01:00:15.495)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (01:00:22.456)
some of my young leaders that I see that same ambition and drive in them, I'll kind of say, hey, watch out. You might not want to go down the road that I've gone down. The value for really working on dating and figuring out marriage, for some people, I feel like it comes super easy. But I see a lot of the really talented people that I work with.
Caleb Gray (01:00:36.433)
Right.
John-Mark Dyer (01:00:52.114)
that can tend to be a little bit more driven and the relationships aren't coming as naturally to them. I've kind of sat them down and just told them like, this something that you really want? Is it a value that you have? Then the way that I've been intentional over the last several years to work on it and try to figure out what was holding me back, why don't you start that journey a little bit earlier?
Caleb Gray (01:01:05.145)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (01:01:18.094)
Very good, yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (01:01:20.682)
Because I really do. think, you know, when I looked at it as just the ambition that I had in a career, that was too narrow of a value of what, you're meaning and purpose. And so I like broadening it, you know, to include family. But I, you know, I will say, I mean, you know, throughout history, there's been priests and
nuns who've been celibate and and i think you can you can be part of that family like my gosh what was that cabrini did you see that movie angel studios came out with it it was in theaters here in america but my gosh was it a powerful movie about this this nun who had a vision from the lord about how she wanted to impact the world and
Caleb Gray (01:01:55.224)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (01:01:59.329)
No.
Caleb Gray (01:02:08.078)
Yeah?
John-Mark Dyer (01:02:19.454)
wanted to go to China, I think, and the Pope said, why don't you start in New York? You speak Italian. There's all these poor Italian families in New York that need help. And so she, I mean, the story of what she overcame and essentially built this huge empire of hope, know, hospitals and orphanages all around the world. But I looked at her life and I thought, well, she was a nun, she was single, and she found
Caleb Gray (01:02:39.857)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (01:02:47.068)
Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (01:02:48.642)
you know, she had those community and the family aspect, it was built a different way. It wasn't through marriage and her own kids, but she had this tight group of nuns around her that had a purpose. And so I looked at that and I thought, you know, there is, you know, for people that either want to be or called or just through life circumstances are single, that there, you can have such a fulfilling life.
Caleb Gray (01:02:54.171)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (01:03:16.423)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I interviewed earlier this year a by the name of he's a priest, Ronald Rollheiser. And one of the reasons I wanted to interview him was because of his singleness and he had written this book, which was just so profound in terms of from a parent's point of view. So it was like,
I was just fascinated by the idea of like he has these profound insights into parenting and into like that relationship. Yet he has been single his whole life. And because it was very impactful for myself, it was just like a very one of the main ideas was how your everyday like when you doing the dishes or when you're
you changing your kids' diaper, like those are acts that can turn into worship to God. So you can be intentional about it and how it can, because it can be condemning when you're like, man, I haven't had time to have a quiet time this morning or just be with God. And one of the things in his book was like, it's like feeds into that contemplative lifestyle of
well, your spiritual life and your everyday life is actually more interconnected than we realize. And it's basically becoming aware of moments in our everyday life where the Spirit of God is moving and where we can be in a state of worship to Him. And like you're saying is that for Him came from a place of
relationship and like community and it's not singleness doesn't mean isolation from community. Just like someone who's in a marriage or in a relationship can be very much isolated from community. It's like that intentionality that we have to choose to be a part and to build and even when it's awkward at times I suppose. Yeah. Yeah.
John-Mark Dyer (01:05:38.498)
Yeah, yeah, that's great insight.
Caleb Gray (01:05:42.715)
Well, just aware of the time. One final question for yourself is how would you encourage people, particularly Gen Zs, to find their purpose? I know it's a big sort of question and to pursue community.
John-Mark Dyer (01:06:09.038)
Well, I think in a general sense, I really like this picture of, you know, if you go to Genesis one and two, I think you can see the picture of what we were supposed to be. You know, God created the earth and then he planted a garden in the east and he put man in that garden. And he said, take dominion. you know, I think he was saying, go out.
expand the garden. I want the whole world to be ordered according to my ways. so that means Christians have a call to go into these places that are dark and chaotic and order them and basically replant the Garden of Eden. And I love that picture because it's just you can see that theme all throughout
the Bible, Noah's Ark and the Tabernacle and Mary carrying Jesus that God has always saved the DNA that it takes to replant the garden. essentially, Jesus is this tree of life and allows believers now to, wherever there's darkness, to kind of show up and say, okay, this is God's order and
This is how to have abundant life and this is what the garden looks like. And so I think.
Everyone you know, God has a unique calling for every person, you know, he he created some people to love government finance music Science and all those places Have so much need for people that understand God's ways to enter them and to use their gifts and say here's how to shape
John-Mark Dyer (01:08:14.24)
society or a business or the institution according to the structure that how God is supposed to properly laid out, you know, according to a biblical worldview. So you think about the, you know, famous examples, William Wilberforce, you know, he saw slavery and he was like, this is an area of chaos and darkness. You know, this is not the perfect garden. This is that area that's unformed. And he said, I'm going to go into government.
Caleb Gray (01:08:40.347)
Brilliant.
John-Mark Dyer (01:08:43.064)
God has called me into government and I'm going to teach them the value, know, biblical values. I don't know exactly if he used that language, biblical values, or he just said, no, every person has human dignity and it was a biblical value. he, and he ordered the whole world and he transformed the whole world. And every believer has that calling to look at the darkness around them and say, I am
not going to stay in my little farmhouse and plant my own vegetables and be safe. There's a real call from God to go into the darkness and say, me be with the hurting, the poor, the broken, and realign it with God's ways and to bring wholeness and healing and plant the garden again. that comes from applying biblical principles and leading people in the salvation. It's some combination of that.
Caleb Gray (01:09:20.23)
Yes.
John-Mark Dyer (01:09:42.463)
And so what I would say to a young person, like with that framework in mind, that they have a gift and that there is darkness that they need to tame, that I think the most important thing is to find the community that you're supposed to be a part of. To look at the people, the older people that you really look up to and say, I want to be like that someday.
and join that community, whether that is finding a mentor in the business world, finding a group of artists that you really like working with. And then once you're in that community, you know, it's basically, well, okay, then the next step would be what is that mission field that God puts in front of you? And so maybe he highlights, you know, high school students.
And you know, like they're dealing with anxiety and depression. Maybe it's an unreached people group in, you know, the Himalayas. And you're like, I need to find a group of people that are reaching those people. God showed me, highlighted those people I need to go. And I think that's where you find your meaning and purpose is by finding that gift, the thing, the unique thing that God has equipped you with and saying, I'm with this group of people. We're going to.
have a mission together to transform this area of society. And so, you know, it's hard to do on your own. And I know some people, you know, are pioneers and they can do it, but most people, need to find a community that's going after that area of passion. So it's, if you know, like you've cried over watching things about sex trafficking, you need to find who are those, who's the organization, who's the church, who's the missions group.
Caleb Gray (01:11:33.841)
Mm.
John-Mark Dyer (01:11:39.247)
that's doing something that you look up to them and say, wow, they're doing everything that I want to do. And you need to go join them and then just figure out how do I serve? Where are the needs? How do I serve so that we can accomplish this mission together? So yeah, you have to discover what you're good at. And that usually takes your 20s. And being a part of a community is the best way.
because you start seeing needs and people are like, well, we need an administrator. And then you do that and you're like, I hate that. I hate admin. And then they're like, OK, fine. We have another need. We need somebody to go up on stage and give a compelling speech. And you go do that and you're like, man, that lit me up. I love that. And all of a sudden, your need and the need and your skills mesh together. And then you're running after your purpose. And you're like, I know why I have these skills. I see the darkness and I'm going to go transform it.
Caleb Gray (01:12:19.28)
Hmm.
Caleb Gray (01:12:34.202)
Brilliant. I love that. Yeah, well, thanks so much for carving out the time in your day to have this conversation, John Mark. It's been, yeah, a really a real privilege and I've enjoyed it. So hopefully you have as well.
John-Mark Dyer (01:12:39.962)
absolutely.
John-Mark Dyer (01:12:50.09)
I have. Thanks very much, Caleb.
