Sarah Walton
Key Takeaways
Finding humor and joy can be a lifeline in the midst of pain and chaos.
Physical limitations and chronic health issues can lead to a deeper understanding of dependence on God.
Grieving and questioning God in times of suffering is not faithless, but can lead to a deeper trust and reliance on Him.
Our limitations and weaknesses are opportunities for God's strength and power to be displayed.
True joy is found in Christ, not in our circumstances. Finding joy and rest in the midst of suffering involves trusting God and finding contentment in His presence.
Parenting requires grace and acknowledging that we won't always have all the answers.
Marriage and parenting are lifelong processes of growth and dependence on God.
God is always writing our story, and we can hold onto hope in difficult circumstances.
Episode Transcript
Caleb Gray (00:00.975)
All right, well, I'm joined here with Sarah Walton. Thanks so much for joining the Upside Down People podcast. How are you going today?
Sarah (00:09.134)
I am doing okay. Thank you so much for having me.
Caleb Gray (00:13.295)
Yeah, well, we were just talking before, it's quite a quite a different time zone that we're both in. So thanks so much for getting up super early and yeah, having this conversation at an ungodly hour almost.
Sarah (00:29.71)
Yeah, you know what? It's okay. I have four kids, so I'm used to having to be up and at them as early, much earlier typically than I want. So it is okay.
Caleb Gray (00:38.799)
Right. Yeah. Well, yeah, I've just got one daughter and yeah, she definitely gets me up early. So definitely can imagine four kids on different schedules and routines. So yeah. Well, you've written a bunch of books and you've done a lot of thinking in the areas of pain, adversity, struggle. But more than that, you've done a lot of thinking in how
Sarah (00:47.31)
Yes
Sarah (00:52.91)
Yes, yes.
Caleb Gray (01:08.463)
hope sort of is illuminated in these different experiences. I think they're very human experiences. I don't think there's a particular human or person that I've met that hasn't come into contact with adversity or struggle or suffering. So yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into a conversation around those areas. But before we do something I like doing with my guests, just to humanize them, to add a bit of flesh to our listeners.
to the voice behind their device is what something people may find surprising about you, Sarah.
Sarah (01:48.878)
well that's an interesting question. Well, I, you know, it's funny. So I have gone through a lot of challenges. There is no doubt about that. But I actually am an absolute lover of humor. And so sarcasm and dry humor, it's very much a language of our household. And so...
Kind of despite a lot of heaviness in life, that has been in many ways a lifeline for us, being able to kind of keep perspective with having some humor and being able to laugh at the chaos of life as well. So that's, yeah, that's one piece. And then I was actually an athlete all growing up. That was very much my passion for many, many years. And so I often tell people though, so it ended unfortunately with a severe injury to my ankle, but.
I tell people I'm now part 12 year old boy because I have a 12 year old boy's joint in my ankle. So I'd always, so on those questionnaires of, you know, I get to know you, it's usually what's something nobody would know about you. And I could always put that one down. It always gets a bit of interesting responses.
Caleb Gray (02:48.015)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (02:59.663)
I can imagine it does. So what sort of was your area of athleticism?
Sarah (03:07.662)
I actually did a lot. Basketball, I would say, was probably my primary sport, but I did soccer. I don't know. Do you guys call it football or soccer? Okay.
Caleb Gray (03:16.687)
We call it soccer over here. We've got a sport called, our football is Australian Football League, which would be equivalent, it's different to American football, but it's the same way of like relating to it. So American football is, it's particularly in America and Australian football is, that's the sort of national sport.
Sarah (03:25.166)
Is that different than American football or same?
Sarah (03:32.686)
Okay.
Sarah (03:37.006)
Yes. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Yes. So anyway, I did soccer and then softball, the female equivalent to baseball over here. So those were kind of my primary and it was wonderful experiences, but you know, those don't last forever either.
Caleb Gray (03:47.855)
Wow.
Caleb Gray (03:56.143)
Right. Yeah. And so just out of interest, how did you get your injury? Was that while you're competing?
Sarah (04:05.774)
Yeah, that's kind of the irony. You know how we often like to try to protect our kids from doing the crazy things, but they often get hurt while tripping over their own feet? Yeah, that's kind of how it went. It was actually, I wasn't playing a sport. I was actually running a volleyball league or a tournament, I'm sorry. And I had actually sprained my other ankle. So my parents adamantly said, you better not play. And I said, I'm not going to play.
Caleb Gray (04:13.199)
Right.
Sarah (04:29.39)
And so I was there and I was just on the sidelines and someone hit the ball, a volleyball over to the sidelines. And I just tried to, I jumped on my, on my good foot to just knock it back to them. And I landed on one of those old volleyball bases that are rounded. And I just, I sprained it and broke it so bad that I put a hole in my joint. And so it's kind of been a, I've had six surgeries since then. So it's been a rough road. It's it, ankles don't heal themselves.
super well because they're so high impact. So that's been kind of one hard aspect of life because it's taken away a lot of my ability to do things.
Caleb Gray (05:06.223)
Right, yeah, and I can imagine that would be fairly difficult for someone who is quite active and enjoys mobility that would impact that quite a bit, right?
Sarah (05:12.558)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (05:18.222)
Yeah, it really does. I mean, that's it's really been one piece that has felt kind of a stripping away because it is something I really found joy in. Even just being able to run, being able to exercise, being able to go out and kick a soccer ball around with my kids. I just have to be really, really careful. And so there's been a level of grief of kind of a letting go of knowing that may never be part of my life again. So it's
It's been a contention of mine with the Lord at times of trying to understand why he's taken away in many ways a coping mechanism of mind and something that is a great joy that I enjoy doing with others. But as in everything in life, right? Kind of like what we're trying to get into is he strips things away sometimes that we just simply don't understand. But ultimately underneath it's learning to rest in him anyway.
with those losses and trusting he will give me something greater in return. So it's been hard. It's been a loss for sure. I still kind of have to grieve it on and off, but I've come to a place of acceptance in many ways too.
Caleb Gray (06:24.335)
Yeah, very good. So would you say that was that was sort of like the starting point of your your wrestles with this idea of hope amidst struggle and pain and suffering?
Sarah (06:36.11)
I would say it was a layer of it. I actually have dealt with chronic health issues since I've been young. I was not, they couldn't really figure out what was going on. So for many years while I was, I think maybe junior high, it kind of started to increase in high school time. So my sixth grade through 12th grade of schooling, I was dealing with a lot of health issues. And so that, that kind of started there, but then I also dealt with a lot of peer pressure, a lot of struggles.
through those teenage years, just trying to navigate faith and living in a very complicated world where there were a lot of pressures on me. So that was kind of another layer. And then I got married fairly young. I got married when I was 20 and had my first when I was 23. And so I had those surgeries happening, but I had health issues happening at the same time. And then our oldest child ended up being born with some neurodegenerative
Caleb Gray (07:11.119)
Sarah, are you there?
Sarah (07:35.63)
kind of neurodivergent challenges. He seemed healthy, but as he grew, had a lot of challenges that came out very aggressively. And it was, as a first time parent, we were really, really struggling. And so that actually led to about 15 years of a lot of deep, deep pain in our home, trying to get our son help as he kind of lived a life somewhat tormented in his mind.
So that was another really, really big piece of it. And that, I think that's where the biggest challenges came was not just one piece, but the layers of suffering that felt like we couldn't kind of catch our breath. And there wasn't really an area that felt like easy in life. It kind of felt like every area of our life has felt really, really hard. And then thrown in there has been job losses and...
a lot of financial loss in many ways at the cost of the challenges we were going through with our son because my husband had to leave a very well -paying job for the sake of our family because of that. And it's really been a struggle ever since. So I've really, I think there's been so many layers of loss. That's probably been the hardest. You know, I think about Job, how when he was first struck with all this calamity.
he immediately, much to our surprise, fell down and worshiped. He was in the ashes, so he was grieving, but he was also worshiping God. But as we know, that wasn't the last chapter of Job. Job went on for like 40 -some more chapters because the rest of that was him wrestling. You know, we often, I think, when something really hard happens, we feel the sudden... We may have an initial reaction of faith, which is wonderful, and that's why we want to...
and strengthen our faith before these times come. But there's a different kind of challenge, I think, when we have to walk through long suffering. And that's what we see Joe go through. The layers of long suffering drove him deeper and deeper into greater questions, greater wrestling, even anger and pain that he didn't know what to do with. So that's, I think, very much, I'd say, been a reflection of how my journey has felt. Having seasons of...
Sarah (09:57.902)
feeling really strong and standing firm in faith, but then the Lord allowing layer upon layer for an extended period of time that has really driven me to have to wrestle with much, much deeper questions and stripping away maybe of a way I had viewed who God was and how he would act. And as he's kind of blown that box open, I've had to kind of wrestle with who are you, Lord? That's not.
how I thought you would act that's not necessarily who I was trusting and I was trusting in God who I thought would do this instead. And so it's been a stripping but in that has been also a slow rebuilding I think on more of a solid foundation.
Caleb Gray (10:33.487)
Right.
Caleb Gray (10:40.975)
Yeah, that's, that's incredible. Thanks for sharing that. when, when you're going through and are going through that, that season and those times of wrestling with God, have you found yourself, in a place where you're getting answers or what does that process look like?
Sarah (11:02.414)
You know, I think I would say more than anything, God has shown himself to be more mysterious to me. And sometimes that means he has shown me answers when I least expected it. And other times it's meant he has seemed silent when I felt desperate to hear him. And sometimes I think that's just the reality we are met with that God is, his thoughts are greater than our thoughts and his ways are different than ours. And so
I think a big aspect of him growing our faith is our answers not always coming and not always getting either, maybe not always not coming, but not in the way we expect or in the timeframe. And so there have been seasons where I have seen his very, very practical, sweet touch in my life. I can think of moments where they weren't.
big splashy things. They weren't answers actually to big prayers we were praying. But things that I saw that was felt like a reminder from him that Sarah, I still see you. I'm still here. I am here to provide. I'm still here to comfort. Even as I allow this to continue, I have not abandoned you. I am still here. And often that came in really small ways that maybe even I would only notice that felt very personal though. And so
There have been those, but then there have been times when we have prayed and prayed and it felt like silence after silence and long seasons of confusion. And then all of a sudden, kind of like him parting the Red Sea, where you feel like there's no way out of this, that he does something only he can do. So I feel like I've experienced both in many ways.
And I know my tendency then is to try to in future challenges pan out how I think God's gonna handle that. You know, in the way I really hope he does. And then it never ceases to amaze me. He always chooses to act differently than I expect he's going to. But there's also been a deepening, I think, of trust in that process in realizing he always does answer.
Caleb Gray (12:59.311)
Right.
Caleb Gray (13:02.831)
Yeah.
Sarah (13:18.19)
but it's not my job to figure out how it's gonna be when it's going to be or how it will look. And that really is the essence of faith, is trusting that God is always doing a million things we can't see. And knowing that even if he's not showing us, there is somehow still his steadfast love and his faithfulness and his goodness wrapped up in what feels so far from good sometimes.
Caleb Gray (13:30.543)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (13:41.775)
Yeah, very good. And like how important is it to allow for space when you're going through those difficult times to question God or to have your doubt? How? Yeah, one, I suppose one thought is how important is it to provide space and what does providing that space actually look like?
Sarah (14:02.062)
Yeah, I love that question because I think we tend to want to rush past the grieving process and it can feel very faithless to question. It can feel very faithless to feel like, God, I don't understand you. But again, I go back to Job. If we read Job and see the questions and even the accusations Job verbalized to the Lord can kind of make a squirm in our seat. But
If you have entered a place of really, really deep pain, especially when it goes on and on, that can end up really, I think, forcing you past kind of this superficial level where you...
I don't know, I think we can be afraid of that part of ourselves. And yes, there's truth, we don't want to simmer on doubt, we don't want that to be our end point. But there is so much freedom and I think purpose in allowing ourselves to grieve, because ultimately God already knows that's where our hearts are, right? He knows our minds, he knows our thoughts, he knows our feelings before we even do. And even to a depth we don't understand. And so I like to think about it as
When we go and we talk about God and the things we don't understand and the things we are angry about to others, it's more of a complaint about God. When we bring those to him, we are actually showing a level of trust in worship because we're saying, I trust in your love for me enough, in your grace for me enough that I can bring my whole self, even the parts that feel really uncomfortable, the parts that feel doubtful, the parts that feel like...
like out of my comfort zone, that really is a picture of trust. And so the most important aspect though is I think being able to say we don't necessarily have a timetable for grief. I've often seen grief as kind of this cycle or it's almost like a stair step spiral. So we tend to kind of deal with grief and waves, right? It kind of...
Sarah (16:10.19)
at the most unexpected times, no matter what you're going through, especially when it's long term, there may be random times during the day where something we see or a conversation we have or just in our alone time where we just suddenly feel this wave of grief again over the losses we're facing or the questions we have or whatever it may be. And so a lot of times I think we have to allow ourselves to go through that cycle again.
Admit, acknowledge, this hurts. I don't understand this. God, I am struggling to understand how your character matches up with this. I'm feeling angry. I'm feeling confused. I'm feeling despair. And then trying to let ourselves start to preach the truth, even just simply saying, Lord, help me trust you in this. Help me see your hand in this. And even if I can't, help me stand firm when I can't.
and preaching that truth to ourselves and slowly bringing ourselves back to a place of standing firm on what is true, even though we're also acknowledging what's hard. And as we do that, I think we can kind of feel like, I'm back in that place again. I'm struggling again. But often we end up being further along in a place of sanctification as we do. We often go through that cycle of grief just a little bit quicker.
Caleb Gray (17:14.223)
Mm.
Sarah (17:30.606)
or we're a little bit quicker to preach truth to ourselves than to simmer in it. And so really it feels like we're cycling backwards, but we really are moving in an upward process, which as we are, really that's all of life, right? All of life is a process of sanctification. And we can be far more frustrated with ourselves than I think God is frustrated with us. You know, I, well, yeah, I just think we are so frustrated by our limitations.
Caleb Gray (17:44.143)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (17:53.295)
What do you mean by that? I love that point.
Sarah (17:59.278)
We for some reason think we should not have them, but God knows our frame. He knows that we are but dust. He knows that we are imperfect, flawed people who are battling not only our internal sinful flesh, but we're living in a world that's broken. And so for some reason, I don't know why we have this idea that we should not struggle or that we should not feel weak or we should not have areas that are just simply not strengths for us. And so
Caleb Gray (17:59.535)
Right.
Caleb Gray (18:21.519)
in
Sarah (18:29.198)
It's been helpful for me to realize how much I am far more frustrated by my limitations than God is because he already knows that I'm going to have those limitations and he's not shocked by them and he's allowed what he has in my life knowing I already have those limitations and the reason he gives them to us is to drive us to him, right? He is the limitless God and he wants us to see our limitations because it realizes we are not God.
Caleb Gray (18:35.279)
Right.
Sarah (18:55.31)
We do not have the answers in ourselves. We do not have all the strength we need. We have a savior who does. And so that uncomfortable place of feeling our weakness or feeling like we just don't understand, or we do have a limitation where we just, we can't do it all. And we can't do it all as well as we want to do it all. Is really the ultimate purpose then is to drive us to one trusting and remembering.
Caleb Gray (19:01.103)
you
Sarah (19:24.046)
Christ lived that perfect life for me. I never can live the perfect life I want to, but that is why I have such a hope in Christ, because he knew I couldn't. And so he lived that perfect life on my behalf, and he died for the sins that I can't save myself from, and he has given me new life in him with the power to walk in that, but he also knows we still live in limited frames on this earth.
Caleb Gray (19:33.167)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (19:47.919)
Yeah, very good. I love how that limits, the limiting or the limitations of humanity drive us toward God, toward a limitless God. And what's in your experience, what's been some challenges in terms of, obviously when we come into contact with our own weaknesses or limitations or just these areas in our life where we're
Sarah (19:57.454)
Mm -hmm.
Caleb Gray (20:16.815)
so frustrated that we're experiencing them. What's the temptation that drives us away from God instead of toward God?
Sarah (20:28.014)
Well, I think we naturally want to be independent people. We want, we resist feeling dependent on others. We can even look at that in our daily life. It's much harder to receive than to give. And why is that? Because we don't like feeling needy. We don't like feeling dependent on other people. You know?
Caleb Gray (20:46.159)
That is so true. That just reminded me, me and my, I've got a friend and we're always fighting each other to pay for each other's coffees. And I think, I think it's more of a prideful thing than a, than a thing of like, I really want to, I mean, I, I love him and I genuinely want to bless him. and it's just easier for me to do that than like what you're saying to receive.
Sarah (20:55.726)
Yes.
Sarah (20:59.982)
Yes, yes.
Sarah (21:08.174)
Yes.
Sarah (21:13.038)
Yes. Yeah. Yep.
Caleb Gray (21:14.063)
that - sorry, that just sparked my thought, it's just like, that is so true, i feel that, why is that?
Sarah (21:18.862)
Yes, I know. And you're right. I think it does ultimately come down toward pride. But I think there is an aspect of humanity in that too, that there's also good in that. I mean, we aren't meant to be needy towards everybody, right? We're not supposed to absolutely give up our responsibilities and depend on other people to take care of us. So we can go too far either way. But
Caleb Gray (21:36.559)
Mm.
Sarah (21:44.846)
God has allowed us to be in a season, very long season of needing the help of other people. And it does not necessarily get easier, but I have learned to see that often God works through other people. And when I'm resistant to receiving his help through others, I'm actually robbing them of their opportunity to be the hands and feet of Christ. I'm not allowing them to walk in a way that God is leading them.
to honor Him. And so we all have different gifts. We have different seasons of life where we have more or less to give in different ways. And so I think we have this sense that I don't want, I don't want to be needy. I don't want to be dependent on other people. I don't want to look weak. But as God allows things in our lives, it kind of strips away the things we tend to lean upon that are not Him.
we're forced to one face and recognize we are weaker than we like to admit, but two, that we are meant to be in dependence on Christ. We were never meant to be separate. We were meant to be in constant relationship with him. He is the one that gives us life, that gives us breath. He doesn't give us life and breath to then go live independently from him. He gives us life and breath to do life with us, to empower us, to work through us.
And so that's, I think, the humbling process is realizing my life isn't actually about me. My life is meant to be a vessel that glorifies God and shows his power through my weakness. You know, it goes back to Paul saying, asking the Lord to remove his weakness, to remove the thorn in his flesh. And, you know, God's response is, my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. And so weakness leads to dependence.
And so we're not going to be dependent vessels on the Lord that allow his strength and power to flow through us if we are so determined to be an island. And so I don't need anybody else. I don't need God to do this for me. Or even the mentality that I need to do this for God. In many ways, there's a sense of pride in that too, that I don't even need God's strength to help me do this for him. I'm gonna do this because I want to prove and show that I am worthy of his love.
Sarah (24:06.606)
there's that tendency too, you know, so can kind of go either way. But I do think again, that's a lifelong process. I think we're always kind of being brought through new situations. I've had to learn that physically. When I body is not working the way it's meant to, I go and see a doctor. I ask a doctor, I need your help. That's not weakness. That's not, that's not being needy. That's being wise. So if, if I am in a place,
Caleb Gray (24:25.103)
Mm.
Sarah (24:34.83)
that I am struggling to know what do I do in this situation? I don't know, I don't even know the right way to think about it. I don't know how to endure it. That thought process is meant to lead us to the one who does, to the one who has those answers and has that power and that strength. So we can see that on both a human level, but also it's meant to ultimately point us to our relationship with Christ.
Caleb Gray (24:56.719)
Yeah, very good. And I think that's also another theme that I sort of picked up in. Yeah, just your work is that sufficiency of God's grace in our weaknesses. Is there a specific moment or season in your life where you experienced God's grace in such a profound way that it transformed your perspective on suffering or on weakness?
Sarah (25:26.286)
Yeah. So actually just this year, I could probably look to a lot of different seasons, but this past January and February, as I said, I deal with chronic health stuff, but I was hit with something. I got influenza and this year was a very, very bad of influenza A specifically. And because my immune system was already somewhat weakened, I tend to get things worse than other people. Well, this ended up
becoming the worst thing I've ever endured physically. I was very, very sick for about seven weeks and I was actually bedridden for five. And I mean bedridden meaning I couldn't walk on my own. I was in agony every single day. And I'm a mom of four kids, 17 to 10 years old. I was supposed to be, I was working as a special education teacher. So I was out of school for five weeks.
my husband became basically like a single parent. I didn't leave our bedroom for five of those weeks. I had to be assisted to go anywhere. And that period of time was a whole new level of basically going down to the bare bones of my humanity. And what does that mean for purpose in my life? It went on long enough that I started to actually have the questions of what if I never get better than this?
what if this is the rest of my life? Because nobody could figure it out. No doctors seemed to be able to know an answer. It was a mystery as to why it was so direly sick and why it wouldn't go away. And the things that were meant to help me actually made me worse. And so I felt like I had nowhere to turn. I didn't know who to turn to. And the ones I did, they ultimately didn't have answers. And I saw the pain on my kids' faces, worrying, is mom ever going to be okay again?
And it brought me to the place where I realized, if I don't ever recover from this place, what value do I have? What in the world is my even purpose in life if I live the rest of it in bed or at least utterly dependent on other people? I can't be the mom I wanna be, I can't be the wife I wanna be, I can't be the friend, I can't be a church member I wanna be. I don't understand, it brought down to the question of, Lord, why give me breath?
Sarah (27:49.87)
but then not let me truly live. And it made me wrestle through some really, really dark places. I mean, there were days where I cried out for him just to simply take me home because it felt unbearable. But I look at that season and I very slowly got out of it. I mean, it probably took me three months to slowly start feeling somewhat human again. But those questions I think left a lasting impact because
Caleb Gray (28:00.134)
Yeah.
Sarah (28:19.95)
I saw him slowly working deep in my heart, this concept of resting in my identity in him, no matter what I don't have to show for myself, that my purpose, my value, my identity is not in what I can do for him. It's not in how good of a mom I can be or how helpful of a church member I am or really however I feel about myself is not what my value is.
Caleb Gray (28:27.279)
Mm.
Sarah (28:47.566)
It's how Christ has declared me valuable because I'm a child in his eyes. And my purpose is to glorify him and find joy in him. And I had to get to the point of realizing I can actually do that from my bed just as much as I can from a pulpit or a pew. And it's just not what we want. We want to feel valuable. We want to be able to look at the things we've done and how we feel good about the things we've contributed.
Caleb Gray (28:47.631)
Right.
Caleb Gray (29:09.487)
Hmm.
Sarah (29:14.19)
And there's value to that. I mean, obviously nobody wants to be bedridden for their whole life. But if God allows something that we don't understand and is not the path we had thought we were signing up for, we do have to come down to these bare -bone questions of faith, even if can I still find my rest and my purpose and my joy in Christ? Can I still trust Him when He takes away everything that I find enjoyment in or value in outside of Him?
Caleb Gray (29:18.799)
Right.
Caleb Gray (29:29.551)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (29:43.567)
Yeah.
Sarah (29:43.63)
And so that was really a profound season of working through some really, really deep and dark places. But I think that has helped me keep somewhat of that perspective as I gradually do get back into places of life, of living life again, even though I'm still limited. I have to rehearse those truths to myself. It's not about what I can give and what I can do. It's what Christ has already done for me and what he can do through me. And I just don't always necessarily know how that's going to look.
Caleb Gray (30:13.551)
Right. I think that's so true in the sense of like with what you're saying, it's something we have to constantly tell ourselves and constantly preach to our own hearts. And while you're talking, I was thinking in terms of just being in a marriage, I can imagine how difficult or maybe just scrape the surfaces of how difficult that would be.
Sarah (30:25.902)
Mm -hmm.
Caleb Gray (30:39.951)
obviously how you shared for yourself, but then also for your husband, probably asking similar questions and wondering how on earth am I supposed to support my wife and how on earth am I supposed to provide for my family and take care of my kids. And then at the same time I was thinking, the scripture, I think it's Paul who says, like, count to the blessing when you face trials and sufferings of various kinds.
Sarah (30:43.854)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (31:08.782)
Mm -hmm.
Caleb Gray (31:09.007)
or counter the joy. It's like, how do you get to that place where you can counter the joy? I mean, like, I remember early on in my marriage, there's times where my wife was sick, just for a couple of days and like waking up throwing up and like, I honestly was like delighted to be able to help her. But then if you extend that to like what you're saying, five weeks,
Sarah (31:25.55)
Mm -hmm.
Mm.
Sarah (31:32.878)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (31:38.159)
a month, 12 months, so many, so many different, different cases. Like how, yeah, how do you wrestle with finding joy amidst such a situation of like hopelessness and, and seemingly despair?
Sarah (31:52.718)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's been really helpful for me to, to realize that God doesn't call us to find joy in the circumstances themselves. Paul doesn't say, to find joy. I'm trying to remember the verse, to rejoice in our sufferings. He doesn't say rejoice about our suffering.
Yeah.
Sarah (32:19.758)
And that's been a helpful distinction to me because I don't think it's not like God's like, find joy in the pain I'm giving you. We aren't, you know, I don't, I think that's, yes, I mean, yeah, like it's, that's kind of depressing and like that, that's very twisted. and so I, yes. So I think it's been helpful for me to realize God is calling us to a deeper joy in Him through our suffering.
Caleb Gray (32:28.687)
That's super sadistic, yeah.
Caleb Gray (32:35.343)
It's like David Goggins running. Yeah.
Sarah (32:46.35)
He's not calling us to be these miserable people that say, I love suffering. This is so wonderful. That's not what we're meant to be doing. It's in a way, the suffering we deal with in this world is like one finger being pried off of this world as our home at a time. And as those fingers are like those white knuckled fingers that we like to hold on to the things in this world, as one is pried away after another,
Caleb Gray (32:51.567)
Very good.
Sarah (33:14.734)
At first it feels like this is bad, this is wrong, this is nothing good is coming from this, it's only hurtful. But as we continue and the Lord uses and allows those things to drive us closer to ask those questions and to bring the grief we're feeling to him, he starts to infuse a new level of trust in him, a deeper level of trust in him as we see him provide through those situations, as we see him help us endure.
as we see our own faith, little by little start to grow in trust. And we don't, I don't think we're always, like I said, it often is a cycle. Like we can find ourselves back where we feel like I've gone backwards. I'm struggling with this again. I'm doubting, I'm questioning this again. But it's often doing so with deeper roots happening at the same time. And so little by little that joy
There's a, I think there's a reason it's hard to put words to because it's so experiential. It's really otherworldly. We don't, it's a strange thing to be able to say. I mean, I've had people say to me, you have such a glow on your face. I don't understand it because you've like lost everything in life right now. And I would honestly say to them, I don't understand it either. I don't feel happy. Like I'm not, I'm not like.
you know, bouncing around, this is wonderful, life is amazing. I'm actually really battling very deep, painful feelings, but I would also say, but somehow I also feel like a subtleness in my spirit and I feel a contentment. And I was actually just working through a talk I'm going to be giving on the paradox of pain and rest. And the verses that I was, that kind of were...
Caleb Gray (34:42.831)
Yeah
Sarah (35:05.55)
coming to life for me were the verses in a song that we're talking about, like a weaned child and how we, you know, when we are initially, we're not like the child that's nursing that comes and is crying out for nutrients and dependence. Like that is more of a crying out for the Lord or not the verse is giving a picture of crying out for the mother, for sustenance, for basic needs of I feel hunger.
I'm crying out to the one who can give me what I need for that hunger. So I was trying to think through, well, that's interesting. The verse uses, I am quieted and calmed like a weaned child. And I was thinking, well, they're weaned. So I'm picturing a child that's nursing that's calm and quieted because their hunger's being met. But in this, it's giving a picture, actually, that the calmness and the quietness of the spirit in the child is simply in the mother's presence, no longer simply for what the mother can give.
Caleb Gray (35:53.199)
Right.
Caleb Gray (36:02.799)
Wow.
Sarah (36:03.15)
And it was such a light bulb picture for me and I was like, that's what God's trying to do in us. He allows those hungers that we feel, the pain that we feel that we need something from Him to initially drive us to Him. But as we grow in faith, what He's slowly doing is teaching us that we don't so quickly just come crying for what we want Him to give us. We start finding actually the rest and the calm and quietness in my spirit comes from being in His presence.
and feeling the equipment of him equipping me with all that I need in terms of his presence and even trust. I think we come to the place where like my faith isn't even sustained by myself. My faith is sustained by Christ. And so it's been a really helpful picture that's just kind of been ruminating in my mind of realizing the hunger I think we allows us to feel because it does drive us to him and that dependence as we were talking about.
Caleb Gray (36:45.487)
Thank you.
Sarah (37:01.198)
But these long seasons of suffering serve a different purpose that he doesn't immediately provide the need we feel like we want or the thing we think we need or the ease of those hunger pains or whatever pains we are feeling. He starts to slowly draw us into him. Okay, if he's not giving me that, how do I endure this? Well, we start experiencing little by little the strength, the comfort, the equipping of his presence.
And that's where the joy starts to be produced because it's not in anything that we are giving. It's simply by experiencing his contentment, his peace, his strength in circumstances that we have no reason to be experiencing those. And that's what others see, which makes them think, wow. And actually, a friend just said this amazing quote. She said, when life is going amazing, other people look and say, wow, I want that family's life.
Caleb Gray (37:55.759)
Right.
Sarah (37:55.918)
When everything is going wrong and you're standing firm, people say, wow, I want their God. And I just thought, that's so powerful and so true because we feel like it's better for us and it reflects God's character to be faithful, to give us the things we feel like we need. But people are far more struck in awe when they see someone standing firm and actually finding joy when they have no earthly reason to.
Caleb Gray (38:05.839)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (38:10.886)
Mm.
Mm.
Caleb Gray (38:24.271)
Yeah, very good. And I mean, I'd put my, be the first to put my hand up to say it's a hard place to come to, to that place that God is enough. And simply to be with Jesus, to delight in being in His presence is enough. Why do you think that's such a hard place to get to? Because there's
Sarah (38:36.43)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (38:50.51)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (38:51.535)
Like almost two ends of the spectrum, either we can be wanting to do everything for Jesus or we want Jesus to do everything for us. And I feel like, yeah, it is so hard to land in that place of just sitting with Him and allowing Him to love us, to embrace us, to change our hearts from just being with Him.
Sarah (39:02.926)
Yeah.
Sarah (39:19.461)
Yes, yeah. I love that because I completely get that. I think, and that can be the danger, I think, when we talk in conversations like this, it can feel so lofty that you're, it just, I'm like, wow, it doesn't, it just feels so out of reach, you know? And I would say even, I mean, really, I'd say I've been through really challenging, painful circumstances for the last three decades.
I just turned 40 and I'd say pretty much from the time I was 10 or 12, life has been hard. So it's felt fairly relentless. And even still, even though that has been 30 some years of feeling like I'm having to learn those hard lessons, it's still hard. I still find those same questions, those still rest, those rustlings. And I think it's been helpful for me to think about, I love the verses that he acknowledges. He knows our frame. He knows that we are but dust.
And that gives me such comfort because I so often want to feel stronger than my earthly frame. And it's just not reality. You know, it's in ourselves. We are weak. We are living in a world that things are just hard. Our physical bodies are wearing away. We're dealing with really complex, painful issues in life. I mean, it's we are body, mind and soul. Everything plays a role. And so it's been helpful for me to think about
I think we're sensory beings. God created us to touch, to feel, to smell, to see. And the spiritual realm, none of that is touched and felt and seen. I mean, it's really all, I mean, he uses that imagery in scripture a lot because that's how we relate, because that's really how we live. That's how our bodies function. And there's a reason we are.
devastated by losing sight because it's something God created us to have for a purpose. And it allows us to see beauty and all that. But God is creating us also. He's making us and preparing us for another world. And so it's this strange tension between the paradox kind of of living now, but also being prepared for what's to come that we don't yet see. And so that's hard for our minds to wrap around.
Sarah (41:39.854)
And I think it's the reason these conversations can be hard to feel concrete because it isn't really earthly. It's eternal. It's a work happening on the spirit level that we can't see with our eyes. We can't necessarily feel as concretely as we like. But that's why he uses the terminology of taste and see that the Lord is good. Well, we would like to literally taste and see that God is good.
Caleb Gray (41:48.687)
Mm.
Sarah (42:08.11)
Like that would be our preference because it feels much more doable. He is calling us to tasting and seeing in a way that is on a deeper, more profound spiritual level that is just harder for us to wrap our minds around. And so I think we feel that tension when we feel our humanity and we want to, you know, like...
Caleb Gray (42:09.711)
Right.
Caleb Gray (42:29.967)
Mm.
Sarah (42:33.678)
joy or to us the concept, even let's use the concept of rest, right? In our minds, rest means I'm physically at rest. I am non -active. I am renewing my strength. I am at peace. I'm not feeling tired and overwhelmed. But we all can say we've literally physically been at rest and not felt at rest.
Our minds are anxious, our thoughts are anxious. We've got a wrestling inside of us no matter how much we are trying to physically rest. So that's where this tension can come. Well, I only understand this concept of rest, meaning to be physically at peace and physically not moving, not straining myself.
Caleb Gray (43:06.479)
Right.
Sarah (43:21.55)
But then what does that mean when God says, come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest? He doesn't necessarily mean he's going to give us physical rest in that moment, but he is working in us a deeper understanding of what that rest looks like, which brings back to those verses we just talked about about like, I'm calmed and quieted like a weaned child in my mother's arms. And so I don't...
Caleb Gray (43:35.151)
Mm.
Sarah (43:49.262)
It's really hard to put words to. I will admit that first and foremost. It's something that I think is so gradual and is beyond what our human minds naturally grasp aside from Christ opening the eyes of our hearts, that it is something that I think we want to understand it to. And I think that comes back to us wanting to not have to feel dependent.
Caleb Gray (43:53.103)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (44:12.943)
Yeah.
Right.
Sarah (44:16.046)
I want to even understand how that all works and I don't. It's just simply got at work in ways that I struggle to understand. But then I start to see in myself and I'm like, I don't even know how I got here. I feel like I've been an absolute mess inside, but I'm suddenly starting to feel a little bit more peace than I was. And I think it's just this process of him removing sometimes the crutches we have and the things we think we're trusting in him. But then suddenly that
Caleb Gray (44:27.791)
Mm.
Sarah (44:45.454)
person in our life who we've been leaning on or the gifting we have that we've been feeling confident in or our physical ability is taken and we're left with something new that we're like, I can't stand on that anymore. I feel less confident now. I feel less strong. And that either drives us away from the Lord, which it can do if we are unwilling to surrender that to him. But it also can be what starts, he starts to use.
Caleb Gray (44:52.559)
Right.
Caleb Gray (44:58.991)
Mm.
Caleb Gray (45:09.935)
Right.
Sarah (45:13.838)
to actually teach us to find true rest, that our rest is not found in anything we can provide or we can do. It's really only found in him. And that often, unfortunately, has to come through difficult ways.
Caleb Gray (45:16.911)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (45:25.935)
Yeah, and it's so fascinating how it is so counter cultural in the sense of we live in the West, it's super depend, super independent, the whole thing of individualism and how we need to focus on ourselves and we'll be the ones who get ourselves out of the ditch to say and it
Sarah (45:37.966)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Sarah (45:45.326)
Yeah.
Sarah (45:49.006)
Yes.
Caleb Gray (45:51.055)
kingdom of God is very different. It's calling us to dependency on a good, gracious, loving, caring Father. And I feel like it is, I mean, it reminds me of what you were saying before. I can't remember the quote you said, but it's in times of pain and struggles where people look at someone who has faith in God, says, I want a God like that.
Sarah (45:57.582)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Sarah (46:16.91)
Yeah, yeah.
Caleb Gray (46:18.831)
to see how strong and how kind he is amidst all of that is, yeah, super, super counterintuitive, but it works itself out in such a beautiful way.
Sarah (46:22.542)
Mm -hmm.
Sarah (46:30.702)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it really does.
Caleb Gray (46:33.679)
Yeah, another... So obviously you've recently written a book called He Gives More Grace and it's on motherhood. So how would you, in light of everything we've been speaking of, how would you frame mothering in the midst of your various circumstances and in this cultural moment as well that we find ourselves in?
Sarah (46:59.342)
Yeah, well, we titled it, He Gives More Grace for a Reason, because we all need a lot of grace. Both for... I did, I did. Yeah, yeah, and part of that's a sweet thing because we had a really rocky road through my teen years and God really redeemed and restored and healed our relationship in many ways. And so it was a really sweet thing to then work together.
Caleb Gray (47:06.127)
Yeah, you write it with your mum as well, which is super cool.
Sarah (47:26.894)
and writing this motherhood book, especially because we're different personalities, which is true for everybody. Every mom, every dad, we all have different, we come at our parenting from different perspectives, from different personalities, different strengths that we have. And so I think on one hand, this concept of grace is, I think we naturally feel like we should have all the answers or we for some reason should always know what to do.
Caleb Gray (47:33.007)
Right.
Sarah (47:54.958)
And we want to guarantee our children's outcome. We want to be able to guarantee their salvation if we just do the right things. We want the proverb, train up a child in the way he shall go and he will not depart from it to be a promise, not a proverb. And it's hard. It's hard because it reveals so much our limitation again. We will be faced either with situations that we just don't even know what to do with. I mean, this starts...
Caleb Gray (48:08.815)
Right.
Sarah (48:21.582)
anybody's a parent knows this feeling of insecurity starts from the time they literally walk in your door from the hospital. Because here's this screaming baby and you're having to decipher what in the world do you want? Do you want food? Do you need sleep? Yes, exactly. And you're suddenly panicked. Like who thought I could do this? And so I think from the very beginning we are faced with this, my goodness, I don't feel equipped to...
Caleb Gray (48:33.839)
No one tells you anything.
Caleb Gray (48:41.327)
Right.
Sarah (48:49.678)
keep this child literally alive, let alone to know how to actually train them up to know the Lord and to follow him when I myself am still trying to work this out. And so I think parenting is the whole essence of parenting is a training ground, not just for our kids, but for us. So much of what is happening is our own sanctification as we're trying to work that out in our children and help teach them and train them. And so
I think the concept of grace is twofold. It's learning to receive that grace ourselves and how that works out practically in motherhood, but in parenting for both moms and dads in realizing we won't have all the answers. We will not get it all right. And so I think we can live either in fear that we're going to screw it up, we're going to mess these children up, and that
What if they don't follow the Lord? What if I don't do all the right things? What if then it's on me? Or we can go the opposite where we think we're very confident in what we're doing and we think, I got this. I totally know how to raise these children. Other parents, I don't know what they are struggling with. This is like easy. I know what I'm doing until God humbles us and we enter a stage that we realize, no, I don't. But I think all of it is really learning this need for dependence again.
that God has entrusted these children to us and each one will have different challenges. Each one will have a different road that God takes them on. And there's a level of having to realize no matter how well I think I'm parenting, I can't control my kids' hearts. And that's kind of terrifying. You know, I mean, we want to be, I mean, if you're a believer,
Caleb Gray (50:32.143)
Yeah.
Sarah (50:37.262)
you really desire your children to know the Lord and to know they will be in eternity with him. It's a terrifying thought that they might not. And so that can cause us to parent out of fear or parent in a controlling way or just think if I just do all the right things and I make sure we have devotions every night and I handle every situation well and whatever that they'll turn out the way I hope they will. And it's scary to think that we don't have that power.
Caleb Gray (50:44.783)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (51:05.423)
Yeah.
Sarah (51:05.486)
But the grace comes in where we realize God loves our children more than we do. He knows what they need more than we do. And so in those moments where I feel my lack, I can either beat myself up over it or I can run to the Lord and I can say, God, I have no idea how to do this. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know why you even gave me this child. I don't know how to honor you in this. I don't know how to love them well. I mean, we all have children sometimes that are...
Caleb Gray (51:12.431)
Okay.
Sarah (51:31.598)
easier to connect with than others. Some we relate to more. Some that are just more challenging. They have more of a naturally rebellious spirit. And so that creates more of a frustration and a difficulty in not knowing how do I handle, how do I help this child? And so there's a freedom and a peace when we start to realize I'm not going to get it all right. And God already knew that. He didn't give me kids because he didn't think I'd mess them up. He gave me children.
Caleb Gray (51:34.095)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (51:47.183)
Yeah.
Sarah (52:01.39)
because he wants me to depend on him in raising them and to impart in them the work God's doing in my own heart. And that's gonna mean also acknowledging my own weaknesses at times, my own sin, being able to acknowledge, guys, I don't have this all figured out. I'm sorry I yelled at you. I acted in anger and that was wrong. That's hard to do when we're talking to a six -year -old, you know? But there's that grace and then there's the aspect of then receiving the grace in order to...
Caleb Gray (52:24.655)
Yeah.
Sarah (52:31.118)
to also extend it to our kids. And realizing they are little, little people that are learning all these things along with us. And if we think about it, we were not at the place of sanctification we are now when we were their age. And we can kind of expect them to be. And so we can be shocked by the things they do. Or what I have noticed is I would have a tendency of seeing, let's say one of my children, I would catch lying to me.
Caleb Gray (52:44.527)
Yeah.
Right.
Sarah (52:56.398)
Immediately in my mind, I would go 20 years down the road projecting how that lying was going to turn them into an awful human being and their life was going to be a disaster. And then my reaction was out of that rather than the moment at hand, that this child is dealing with the temptation to run and hide from what they did. And so their reaction was to try to hide it by lying. And I have done the same. I did it plenty of times when I was a little kid. So why am I acting like
Caleb Gray (53:01.647)
Right.
Caleb Gray (53:09.935)
Yeah, right.
Sarah (53:24.59)
this child, who are you, how strange that you would do this. And so our having that concept of looking through the eyes of grace doesn't excuse it. It doesn't say, honey, it's OK. I used to lie to. That's not what grace is. But it's saying, it's not me reacting in anger towards them. How dare you lie to me? What would make you do that? It's saying, sweetie, you I know you're not telling me the truth.
Caleb Gray (53:37.839)
Right.
Sarah (53:50.67)
But, and I know it is because you're afraid, you're afraid you don't want to tell the truth because the consequences that will come, those are hard, they don't feel good. And so, but what are the choices we have? You can either run from it or you can just admit it and acknowledge it that you were wrong and we can work towards what forgiveness looks like. And so those are teaching moments where we can either unleash our disappointment in our kids.
or we can allow them to feel the pain of their consequences, but doing it through the lens of grace and teach using those moments as gospel moments, gospel teaching moments. So ultimately that is kind of, and that just grows as our children grow in how that ends up looking.
Caleb Gray (54:29.839)
That's brilliant. I love that. I mean, it's such a reminder as well of that image of God, how His kindness leads us to repentance and how He handles us. He doesn't excuse our behaviour, but disciplines and teaches us through it. So how would you think then about marriage or parenting if you're standing as a 20, 30 year old today? Is there anything you'd...
Sarah (54:40.686)
Yeah.
Sarah (54:44.942)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah. Yes.
Caleb Gray (54:58.831)
do differently or put anything in place as an encouragement for what lies ahead.
Sarah (55:06.254)
Yeah, you know, I think the reason I wrote the book that I did is because I would have extended a lot more grace to myself as a mom, as a wife, as a human being. Again, not in the sense of excusing, but I found that how quickly I would beat myself up over not doing the right thing or not just automatically knowing the right thing.
and feeling frustrated by those limitations. And so I think we all kind of want to be to the end point of sanctification like now. Like we want to have it all figured out, you know? It's a painful process. And so I think being able to accept the reality that this is a lifelong process and whether it's through parenting that we're experiencing that sanctification or...
It could be through singleness or it could be through infertility or it could be just through marriage itself or illness or the job we're working, whatever. There's always elements of our sanctification at work. And we can be so impatient with ourselves in the process. And so that doesn't, again, excuse and say, well, you're just in the process. It doesn't matter. You're not perfect. That obviously is going too far in that direction. But I think
remembering that all of life is part of that process, but we are already made new in Christ now. And so I think I often measured my status with the Lord by how confident I felt in how I was living. And really that was missing the gospel altogether because the gospel is meant to encourage us to live lives of godliness.
not to live lives of godliness so that I feel worthy of the gospel. It's like the twisting of that, right? But that is what I found much more natural in me, is I want to feel like I deserve it. So I want to feel like a good mom. I want to feel like I'm a good wife, all of that. So to those people in their 20s and their 30s that are starting out in whatever season of life they're in, I think it's this, what I would hope to encourage them with is that
Caleb Gray (57:01.391)
Right.
Sarah (57:25.102)
It's okay to acknowledge it's a process. It's okay to acknowledge that there will be days where you are much quicker to run to the Lord and there will be days where you struggle to do that. And there will be seasons where you feel really close to Christ and there will be seasons where he allows you to feel a sense of distance. And that doesn't necessarily mean that, well, it doesn't mean that's changing the status of your relationship in Christ or your standing.
in Christ is forgiven and an accepted child of his. We so often measure how we feel in our relationship with the Lord with how deserving we feel. And so I just, I think there's so much more fruit that can come from us acknowledging, I'm not gonna always do it right. I'm not gonna always have the answers and that is okay. But what...
Caleb Gray (58:05.711)
Mm.
Sarah (58:20.334)
that should drive me to increasingly as I grow, as I am sanctified, as the Lord stretches my faith, what I hope to see is that will increasingly drive me to Christ quicker and quicker and to see my dependence more and more. And the bigger thing I think I would love to encourage people with is God is always writing our story.
There's always things at work that we cannot see. So when we are in moments where we feel like our child is turned their back on the Lord or they are, they're maybe young and they just feel so rebellious and they don't listen to a word we say and we feel like I am falling short as the parent I want to be, that that story isn't done. We can think there's a conclusion in what's right in front of us, but there's always a story at work while we are still breathing. God is always working a story of redemption in our lives.
Caleb Gray (58:59.855)
Mm.
Sarah (59:12.526)
And so holding onto that hope that even if what we see in our circumstances right now feels kind of hopeless, the story isn't finished. So allow that sense of hopelessness to drive you more to a dependence on the fact that God does know what he's doing and he is not finished writing that story and allow that feeling to just continually drive you to putting hope that he has all of these things in his hands and he is trustworthy.
Caleb Gray (59:38.959)
That's awesome. I love that encouragement. And just final question, if anyone is wanting to find out more about yourself, about your work, grab a copy of any of the books that you've authored, you've authored quite a few, where would you direct them to?
Sarah (59:59.694)
Probably the simplest place I have a blog that I write that is called Setapart .net. That has, I think, most of my books linked on there. I also am on Instagram at Sarah P Walton. And so I do a lot of ministry stuff on there and kind of keep up to date on updated ministry things that I'm working on as well.
Caleb Gray (01:00:23.727)
Awesome. Cool. And I'll put a link up to those in our episode description as well. So people can, can find you easier. Thanks so much for the conversation, Sarah. Honestly, it's yeah, it's super refreshing. I was trying to think of what, what the right word is, but it's refresh. I didn't want to use refreshing because it's like you spoke vulnerably and openly and honestly, and it's about difficult things and real
Sarah (01:00:28.622)
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you.
Sarah (01:00:43.214)
You
Caleb Gray (01:00:53.327)
real situations and circumstances that you've been through, but it's refreshing to hear the hope of the Gospel amidst these different circumstances that so many people face in life that no one's isolated from suffering or pain, but it's something that touches each of us. And it's something I think, yeah, that we need to know how to
Sarah (01:01:07.31)
Yeah, amen.
Sarah (01:01:13.198)
Yeah.
Caleb Gray (01:01:22.575)
depend more on God that we need to see our limitations as this beautiful gift that draws us back into relationship with God. So thanks so much for sharing that with us and just being such an encouragement to our listeners.
Sarah (01:01:32.174)
Yeah.
Sarah (01:01:40.878)
Thank you. Thank you. It really was a privilege talking to you. I always end these conversations feeling so encouraged myself. So it's good to preach these things to myself too. So thank you. wonderful. Well, that's great. I really appreciate talking to you. This has been wonderful.
